Order of Christ Sophia

I've personally known 2 people involved with the Order of Christ Sophia. One was in for a number of years, but, fortunately, woke up 3 years ago and got out. Durng her first 2 years after the experience she suffered severe depression. She is just now getting over it and getting her own life back. The other, is still in and is becoming more and more distant to me and to other friends. I've never experienced anything quite as devastating…to the person involved, the family and the friends. “Father” Peter Bowes is an extremely unhealthy person with a narcissitic christ complex. It's definitely all about mind-control; not love or spiritual growth.

Hi-

Problems among family members are not new. Blaming those problems on others is also not new.

I've been a member of the Order of Christ/Sophia for over a year now, and I have found it a remarkably meaningful alternative to living a life that is dictated by society's primary value of pleasing everyone else.

We are at a time on this planet where it is critical that we elevate our individual consciousness to a level where our own Creator can more easily use us for expanding the love and light on this very troubled planet. We CAN make a difference.

If a deeper inner path is subject to harsh criticism, because those not choosing that path don't understand it, what's the point of each of us being given the divine gift of free will?

The Order of Christ/Sophia has centers in Denver, New Haven, Milwaukee, Dallas, Oakland, Seattle, Boston, Kansas City and Atlanta. Check them out. See for yourself. Propaganda and rumors only work if people don't consult their own experience.
Genevieve

Being in the Order for one year does not give the
insight one needs to see how the effect of being with teachers who are controlling….
I was there I know.
The troublesome issue is the one of true spiritual growth that is the only issue and it gets mixed up in the egos of teachers who have there own problems.
I advise anyone exploring spirtual growth to learn as much as they can before joining any group….i.e. what is a master teacher, what one should expect, what is healthy and what is not….
Mr. Bowes group is not healthy and very dangerous.

My experience as the spouse of a student of the Order of Christ/Sophia has really turned me off this group. I do think it's misguided and dangerous. However, I don't think they're into mind control, and I don't think they're evil. I do see them putting strong psychological pressure on the students and manipulating them. I also don't see much compassion within the OCS for those outside the Order — especially parents. Many marriages and other family relationships have been destroyed under the strain of the OCS' “path.” While I don't think we should have to live our lives so as to please everyone, I do think we should think of more than just ourselves. Those outside us … especially those with whom we struggle in relationships … should be given our love generously. I don't see the OCS teaching this. I think the approach they take is arrogant, patronizing, defensive, secretive, and self-serving. I don't think I'm in much of a position to judge whether or not the OCS bring people closer to God. But I certainly see the OCS distancing people from other people. I think everyone ought to have a close and personal relationship with a higher power, and that there are many different structures in which one can pursue such a relationship. But if you're looking for a way to be more easy-going, generous, humble, accepting of others, and forgiving … well, you probably want to look elsewhere.

As a member of the OCS, one of the things I find most outrageous regarding those outside the Order who speak and lobby against it is that those people purport to know more about what is happening in the Order and what is best for those in the Order than the Order members themselves do. Very often the approach to Order members is a patronizing, power-wielding attempt to control the member - usually in very subtle, under-handed ways.

Those who are at all literate in modern-day psychology are surely familiar with the phenomenon of “Projection.” This is what I see happening. Family members find they don't have the same power and control over their “loved” ones that they used to be able to; they freak out and assume that someone else has taken over their role. They see the Order as wielding power and control over the members…because really….how ELSE do you earn someone's “Love” and devotion? Surely you have to manipulate to get it.

I am here to say “No.” You don't. There is no way I would be within a hundred-mile radius of the Order if I felt for a second like I was being manipulated or controlled. Really….subtle manipulations and control, and “stickiness,” are standard fare in most relationships. For years I distained of family and other relationships where I felt that happening, knowing it felt so wrong, and knowing deep within me that there HAD to be purer relationships than this, and that I wanted to be in relationship with people that truly respected me, and truly gave me the freedom I desired to be who I truly was. I looked and looked. There was always some “stickiness,” or neediness, or lack of balance, or inability to communicate, etc. Nothing was ever the True Love I was looking for. And the Order is finally where I found that.

True Love is scary for most people, because, although we're all looking for it, most of us can't really trust that it's actually possible. We all want relationships that don't have caveats, people that know us through and through and still accept us, Love that wants only to know us deeper and deeper and has no designs about what it needs to be like ultimately or who we need to be to “earn” it.

This is the kind of Love the Teachers of OCS give.

One other thing: in this Love, the Teachers do not hesitate to speak Truth to all their Students or those with whom they come into contact in the world. This is a primary reason most who have left the Order in a huff and are now bitter about their experiences there could not stand being a part of it anymore. Most people don't want to hear Truth - especially about themselves.

Striking similarity: the Pharisees who were so indignant and hated Jesus Christ to the point of plotting his violent death. Jesus spoke the Truth to them about their misguided ways. They refused to hear it. And in their pride about who they were, they wouldn't even listen to his words. Had they listened, they would have become his Students; and they would have come to truly know God.

My experience as a student in the Order of Christ /Sophia has been an entirely positive one. Has my life changed? Yes, completely! Why ? Because it was my heart's desire. How? Through learning that God is inside of each one of us and our way to happiness lies within. So much of the world is focused on looking outside for satisfaction.That experience is well, dissatisfying because the love we have is the love we can give. It starts with loving and forgiving yourself. When we let go and let God then this love moves out to others.What does” let go and let God” mean? It means to let go of limitations, fears and doubts. To risk it all and ask the question ” God , What do you think should happen? How would you do this? God, please help, and show the direction to go in!” In the quiet stillness of faith God answers us. EVERY TIME! I have grown personally and spiritually in my time with the Order in ways that have enriched and strengthened my life. In God we live and move and have our being.Peace to all.
P.S. Do check out a workshop if the Order of Christ /Sophia is in your city! They are a treat. See for yourself and make up your own mind.
Sarai Fairchild

I have been a member of the OCS for about a year and a half and my wife has been involved for 3 years.

I've come to form close relationships with the other students in this Order including the very few that have parents who actively seek to bring harm to the OCS. It's easy to get these parent's view of their situation because they broadcast it through the internet and television. But what I get to see and hear that people outside this Order don't, is the side of the student's themselves.

All I can tell you is that you aren't going to get a balanced view of what goes on in the OCS by only listening to people like Nancy Wainer. You won't get the truth about this Order by watching newscasts that are more interested in ratings and sensationalism then Truth or by visiting websites of so called “cult busters” who are only motivated by money.

There are over 130 students in this Order and out of that 130, I can count the number of students with parents like Nancy on my fingers. The group that has formed against us represents a very small portion of the family members of OCS students. They are most certainly loud but they are small.

Everyday I see the growth of the students here as they work through there issues and come into relationship with God. I came to this Order with a huge load of old unprocessed emotions over things that I had experienced in my life and my marriage had been going down the tubes for several years.

Now, my wife and I are working on our relationship and growing closer as a result of the counseling that we've been given and I've worked through a lot of that baggage that I brought with me to the OCS through the love of my teachers.

It's probably not going to make the evening news or stir up a lot of controversy but that's my experience as a student of the Order of Christ Sophia.

I am currently a member of the Order of Christ/Sophia in Boston. This spiritual community has provided me with nothing but love and support in my journey to Christ. The teachings of this Order are from the wisdom schools of all ages and all belief systems. After studying psychology, religion, philosophy and 'new age' approaches to life, I have found the Order of Christ/Sophia, it's Teachers and Priests to offer the way to peace which my heart and soul have yearned for all of my life.

As for the allegations from the parents shown…it is unfortunate that they would choose this approach over sincere communication with their adult children and acceptance of their choice of worship. I have open relationships with my parents, family, friends and co-workers outside of the Order of Christ/Sophia…and, my life has been blessed with new friends in a loving spiritual community.

I wish peace to all…and I wish that the media would do a better job at representing both sides thoroughly with an eye toward reconciliation rather than sensationalism.

Be well,
Rebekah
Order of Christ/Sophia-Boston

I cannot comment on anyone else's experience but my own, of course. People divorce for all sorts of reasons. People fight with families for all sorts of reasons. But doesn't it seem unusual for a church to engage in practices that encourage such strain and conflict?
Here are some facts. In the last year my wife has paid about $10,000 to the Order. She is at the Order for at least an hour every day. She is gone every second or third Saturday for a full day. She is gone at least three evenings every week. My experience has been that my wife has treated me very differently since she joined the Order. My perception is that she has been more secretive, sullen, defensive and argumentative. Our marriage has almost ended three times since she joined the Order. I have changed jobs to be able to spend more time at home, giving up about $30,000 in income. My wife is no longer talking to her parents — not even to call them on Mother's Day or Father's Day. Not even to call her dad when he had a heart procedure. My kids have expressed worry about our marriage, worry about their mother and disdain for “Mommy's Church” that they see as having changed everything. The Order has affected our sex life. It has changed my wife's attitude toward parenting. It has changed her attitude toward employment. She would tell you the changes have all been good. I would tell you they've been very painful. Our family would say the same. So would many of our friends.
To those of you seeking enlightenment or a higher spirituality, I assure you there are places where you can seek God where the leaders and community are supportive of families, compassionate toward others, unafraid of outside criticism, less focused on marketing and less focused on themselves. The practices of the Order of Christ Sophia hurt people. What is practiced there is a poor substitute for real love. Real love is unconditional. Real love is giving. Real love is gentle and understanding. Real love is inclusive and open.
You are free to choose your path. Listen to opinions on both sides, of course. But don't automatically discount the voice of those who have had negative experiences. There are more of us than the Order likes to think about.

The Order of Christ Sophia is dangerous. It requires the complete obedience of its members and they in turn become increasingly dependant on it. When my single parent started attending classes and meetings, it was once or twice a week, but it quickly became several times a day. When asked why it was so important that my parent rush off at 6:30 AM for morning prayer, the reply was “I need it…it FEEDS me.” I felt completely abandoned by my parent who left me and my siblings at home to fend for ourselves. A parent's children are supposedly the number one thing in their lives, but not when the order is concerned…that is put above ALL other relationships by the members. I had to grow up and assume the role of a parent at age 12.

Things started to get more and more bizarre. My parent started to receive guidance from god. Now, when they received guidance, it could sometimes be false guidance (how convenient). When “Father” Peter Bowes receives guidance, it can never be false…it is the word of god. My parent received guidance that they shouldn't dye their hair anymore…gray looks wiser. I truly thought my parent had gone crazy. I always half expected to wake up in the middle of the night with my parent standing over me with a knife saying that they got guidance to kill me. My parent received guidance through Mr. Bowes to quit their well paying job leaving us in a financial lurch. We borrowed money from anyone my parent hadn't already severed contact with.

On one occasion I attended a conference where members of the order from two different cities came together. I went because they needed someone to look after the very young children during their hours and hours of prayer and meetings. This was before I knew what it was all about and what they were doing, but I just couldn’t shake the creepy feeling that came over me. Something was not right. It was some time after this that I informed my parent that they were in a cult. They reported that I said this to Mr. Bowes who “didn’t appreciate that.” He said that that was no joking matter and it wasn’t funny. The thing is, I was serious. I feel like I hit very close to home with that comment for the both of them. Mr. Bowes denies allegations that he is running a cult, but I think he knows exactly what he is doing.

To this day I have trouble trusting my parent and have bitter feelings towards this whole experience. The order ruins relationships and lives. There are countless reports of the order cutting people off from their past and their families. I have heard reports of at least one former member committing suicide. My parent is out of the order now, but is still having problems coping with the trauma the order created. If anyone is thinking of joining the order, please reconsider. If you are already in, please get out now while you can still salvage relationships that are dear to you.

I would like to share one more element of my experience: I grew up in the Catholic church, attending Catholic grade school and a Catholic university, teen retreats in high school, counseling at a Catholic youth camp during my college years. Throughout all that time my love for Jesus and for God was strong, and my desire to grow ever closer drove me to keep searching for new opportunities. Most of what I experienced in all the spiritual communities of which I was a part was very saccharine sweet. There seemed to be a standard for people who were spiritual and love Jesus—that they were “nice,” committed to their families, loyal to their friends above all, etc.

Looking back, I can see how truly ill at ease and not at peace I was during those years. I would have explained it away and told you I was fine at the time. But I wasn't. Because those external expectations were crushing me inside. I was compromising who I was, what I really felt, wanted, thought.

Being a Student at the Order has taught me otherwise. I am learning how to truly come to know myself, and be true to myself - even if that means disturbing a mirage of external “peace.” I have learned that my Jesus did not care a hoot about being “nice.” He did not care what others thought of him. His one and abiding loyalty was to God; and he spoke God's Truth above all else. In this, his life was a living representation of the First Commandment—loving the Lord his God with all his heart, mind, and strength, and having no Gods before God. I am now seeing how “keeping the peace” is just one of many alternative Gods.

It is sometimes hard for me to be a member of OCS, when the very people who were or would have been spiritual companions before look at me with suspicion and wariness, assuming I am some aberration. Like choosing to put God before anything else in my life is so wierd….

When all I'm doing is what a devoted Catholic would do: joining an Order by which I give my life to God. Only I'm not living in a monastery. And I'm not as concerned with being “nice.” I'm concerned with truly Loving people, even if I have to say things that they don't want to hear or that might make them unhappy. I'm committed to living how Jesus truly lived.

I still love my family and friends - but in a more real and true way. And I'm learning to Love myself - something I could not grasp while I was alienated from my internal life. The mystical path is bringing me home, to the God within me.

This is in response to Genevieve Towne:
1. Our family had no problems to blame on anyone else until my daughter became entrapped in this psycho/pseudo-spiritual bond, a.k.a. The Order of Christ/Sophia.
2. Who ever told you that society's primary value was pleasing everyone else? The society in which I live values the contributions one makes and the rewards are intrinsic. Who are you pleasing now? Could it be … . PETER?
3. The current condition of our planet requires us to take action, not to sit like a stone looking inward, counting the angels on the head of a pin.
4. We family members understand your search for the deeper inner path better than you think we do. We all hear the voice of God every day of our lives and it didn't take Peter Bowes to teach us how. Do you honestly believe you currently have free will?
5. I've been to the Order of Christ/Sophia Center and I've seen for myself that this order is, in fact, a destructive cult.
My love and best wishes go out to you, Dear Child.
Love,
Another Heartbroken Mother

In reponse to Mary
Controlling parents? My goal in raising my children was to encourage them to become self-sufficient adults and to live their lives on their own. My own life is very full and I do not have the time, energy, or inclination to try to control my adult children. I was hoping, however, to be able to visit them and play with my grandchildren a couple times a year. My daughter is now under the control of the Order of Christ/Sophia and I am no longer welcome to visit with her. Her saint of a husband sees to it that I still see my grandchildren. PS Some of us are getting on in years and we may be gone by the time you wake up and want a relationship with us again.

For anyone who is new to this issue- let me put this in perspective. There are about 75 people in the Order of Christ Sophia. We are very small- there is a lot of hate mail here. How likely is it that of so many of our very few member's families have ramdomly run across this website and decided to voice thier opinion? We are not a major debate topic in the general public. And in fact most of the famlies of people in the Order are not angry so I find it hard to believe that this is a free and random expression of people's feelings about the Order. There has been and organized attack on this order and I suspect that this is part of it. I honestly don't know for sure but I can't imagine that so many of the very few families that are angry ended up here by coincidence.
I find it interesting that we are acused of being unloving becuase the postings I have read here and elsewhere are agressive and mean. I find it very cruel to be calling Father Peter names and to be suggesting that we are either malicously hurting people, or just crazy. I have read horrible lies and twists of what our practice and purpose is. I have been saddended and hurt by hearing such things from people who I have known and loved and who have become so vengeful.

I respect everyone's right to thier feelings and perspective but I would appreciate it if people were more honest about thier postion and how they are affliated and/or coached with groups who are attacking the Order. I would also appreciate people being more honest about thier full experience of the Order and not speculating and attacking. Along those lines, I am Rev. Lucille and I am a priest of the OCS and I live in Oakland. A deacon friends of mine in Atlanta alerted me to this website and the opportinty to speak my piece. I read the postings and was upset by the spiteful nature of the accusations. I truned off the computor and went on to other things but the maliciousness of some of the postings brothered me and I came back on to give my perspective.

I don't expect that this request will be honored but after reading the postings I felt uneasy and disturbed by the meaness so I felt I nedded to write. Thank you for your time.

-Rev. Lucille

I am not a member or former member of the OSC, not friends with members or ex-members or affiliated with pro or anti cult groups. I am certainly not a part of any conspircy. I came upon this site by accident (no one emailed me and urged me to post here). And yet I have a story. I have a dear friend who was in a relationship with an OCS member and the relationship ended abruptly so the partner could pursue spiritual mastery - OCS style. My friend did not want the relationship to end, but there was absolutely no discussion allowed (except about financial matters). This was not done in a kind, humane or loving manner and my friend was hurt, confused and bewildered. It affected this person and their family deeply. I could only offer support and love (something that was not available from the former partner). One of the more devasting parts to my friend was the partner's refusal to discuss the break up, esp. since the OCS is supposedly headed by two “psychotherapists”, who, one would think, would value counseling and discussion. Relationships break up everyday and in the long run it was the best for my friend (who would have been subjected to even more hurt by staying with this person) but this was not done in the spirit of any type of kindnesss, contrary to the OCS claims of LOVE being an important value in the organization. I do not know if this is typical of OCS relationships, but I did think at the time that the OCS was a cult, having been in one many years ago myself.

I think that the reason that people are talking about this organization is not because of any vast conspiricy (cult thinking tends to run to paranoia), but because of the emotional damage inflicted on people - as I saw for myself. I do believe people in cults are brainwashed or often pursuaded to a particular point of view through psychological manipulation and are unwilling or unable to look honestly at the negative aspects of their organization or confront unethical behavior, often out of fear. I also believe that despite any good intentions (and I suspect most of the OCS members do have good intentions), if you are part of an organization that is causing harm and pain to others and you do nothing, then you are also responsible for that pain and suffering. The ends do not justify the means.

Lastly, shame on you Mary and Rev. Lucille, for your posts defending the OCS and not even acknowledging the trauma of a child (a child!!) who posted right before you and detailed great neglect and trauma suffered while their parent was praying with the OCS. Where were you and were were your leaders when this child was suffering???

A friend of someone damaged by the OCS

Hi Rev. Lucille. Peace be with you. We haven't met before. My wife is known as “Sophia” in your Order. She has been a student for over a year, and is now a deacon in training. I stand by every word I have posted on this site.

I found this website on my own. I am not part of any conspiracy against you. I know of no organized attack against the Order, although I certainly know many people who have been hurt by the Order and feel compelled to share their experiences with others. No one has encouraged me to post here, or to search this website out.

You're right, though, that there doesn't need to be any name calling. I don't agree with the teachings of the Order, but I don't think that makes the Order crazy or malicious. I don't discredit your opinion and experience with the Order. I would hope you're not trying to discredit the opinions or experiences of those non-students posting on this site. Personally, I have yet to be convinced that the Order is hurting others maliciously. But I have been hurt, and I personally know many others that have been hurt, in the name of the Order of Christ Sophia. The pain is real, and I don't like the suggesion that my feelings or opinions are somehow invalid for no reason other than they happen to be negative.

I accept that you and a number of others (my wife included) feel they have gotten some really good things from the Order. Do you accept that me and a number of others feel they have been hurt by the Order? And then, more interestingly, what if anything does the Order see fit to do about it?

Please don't assume I'm vengeful. My main motivation for sharing my feelings is to help prevent others from having to go through what I've gone through.

I was atracted to this website because of the opportunity to get perspectives from both those who have had good experiences with the OCS and those who have had bad experiences with the OCS. You're right that it would be a shame if this turned into nothing more than one side of a debate discrediting the other side. I propose we let everyone share his or her experience without attacking opposing perspectives. And I also welcome your invitation to openness. If anyone is posting because they were encouraged to post by someone else (whether a cult deprogrammer or an OCS teacher) that would be good to share.

I wonder if Richard Evans Lee knew what he was opening up by posting the Boston news story on this page :).

Similar things have happened with other entries in my various weblogs and websites.

As long as everyone is civil it is OK with me and I won't interfere.

Being concise is advised: as the page's size increases it will become increasingly slow to load.

My name is Michelle and I speak as a member of the Order of Christ/Sophia who has chosen to follow my heart. I have chosen to become part of a spiritual group that is leading me into deeper peace, love, honesty and respect for people. I have never experienced so much love, acceptence, and support of my growth as I have in this group. The Teachers of the Order have supported me coming into deeper connection with God and coming into maturity in my life, which involves taking responsibility for what I have created and changing the parts of me that have acted out of fear and anger.

My parents, Nancy Wainer and Paul Cohen, have attacked the Order of Christ/Sophia and gone on television talking about the dangerousness of the group. They do not understand the transformational work that the Order does and they are attacking it with lies and misconceptions about what we do, fed to them by Rick Ross and other anti-cult “experts” who make money off of campaings against countless groups about the Order. The biggest misconception that has come up with my parents is that the Order, particularly the Teachers of the order, destroy relationships in families. For me the work I did with the Order gave insight I needed to approach my family and give us an opportunity to work out some of the issues from the past that had always prevented us from really connecting and understanding each other. My parents never accepted my choice to join the group and grow as a spirtual adult and so never opened to work on these issues that I brought up.

I am writing in support of any adult's decision to choose God, to choose a path which promotes their own wholeness and their own fulfillment. The Order of Christ/Sophia has offered me an amazing opportunity to heal and to work with others who are committed to healing and stop hurting ourselves with guilt, self-hate, and habbits that do not promote love. I have a deep appreciation for the gifts that come through this spiritual Order, through the love of its Teachers and priests, and through its members as we work to bring its gifts of honesty and love to others.

I think it is interesting that anyone who disagrees with the OCS or has negative experiences with the OCS is either:

a) attacking the the order
b) lying about their experiences
c) not willing to hear the TRUTH
d) being forced by anti-cult experts to say bad things for financial gain.

Amused

Indeed, Cici. There appears to be no room for a genuine negative experience. I can't imagine I'm the first person to ever have a genuine negative experience with a church organization.

That's why I really value those people posting who, instead of worrying about discrediting those of different views, are coming forward with their own stories of good experiences. That strikes me as a much more positive way to defend the OCS.

Rev. Lucille:
I am not affliated with anyone or any organization to speak out against OCS. I found this site on my own. My parent doesn't even know that I have come here. I thought that this would be a good place to tell my story to people who have or are going through similar problems to let them know that they are not alone and perhaps to get some support of my own (which I have, thank you).

To child of former member:

You sound like a strong, resourceful and very bright young person. My heart goes out to you as you travel your path towards healing.

Peace

I have been a student of the Order for 4 years. In that time, every aspect of my life has improved, including my relationships with my friends and family, thanks to the loving counseling of the teachers at the Order. I now feel like a whole person who is connected to God. In the 4 years I have been with the Order I have NEVER witnessed anyone being manipulated into doing anything they didn't want to do. Instead, I have seen people's relationships healed and strengthened. I have seen people get on their feet financially. I have seen people get the medical care they need to heal ailments. I have seen people become open and loving. I have seen people take responsibility for their lives in ways that most people never accomplish. This is a loving healing valid path for many people, but certainly not everyone. It is my prayer that everyone can find a place that serves them as well as the Order of Christ Sophia has served me.

I've been involved with the spiritual school of the Order of Christ/Sophia for 4 years and I've been a committed student for over 2 years. The spiritual training I received at the school brought peace, strength and clarity to my life. My desire is to love and to open fully to God's love in my everyday life. Is the process of opening always easy? No; Is it possible? Yes; Is it painful to go back to the wounds and feel the fears, the anger and the sadness? Yes; Did I heal these wounds when I was ready? Yes; Is it worth it? YES.

The relationships with my son, my husband who is not in the order, my friends and co-workers are deeper, more conscious and mindful. I am a different person. But, it is what I wanted when I went to the school. I thank the priests and ministers in the order who were willing to help me and go through the process with me.
I wish to anyone to find their own path in life.

Marie-Noelle
Boston

We all have differing opinions, however facts are not so malleable and the facts show that OCS has hurt many people, caused family splits and engendered divorces. When asked how you could tell a Christian, Christ responded by “their fruit”, that is by the results they leave in their wake. OCS's fruit speaks volume.

If you haven't checked it out, see a site organized by family members of OCS adherents - ocsfam.org. Much good info. for both OCS members and their families.
PEACE

Someone felt I should intervene in the comments. The person was a member of Order of Christ Sophia this was my reply:

I've pretty much decided to let the exchanges play out without intervention. I find meddling with user comments offensive and only do so when strongly provoked. I've accepted some disgusting comments from homophobes. It is a very difficult position to have my own personal feelings and do my best to not stop or delete comments.

Since I have no emotional investment in your controversy I don't find the words you cite as anything other than typical of heated debate which is not the same as hate speech. And I do make a very real distinction between people who comment from a vantage point of percieved pain and those who are simply spewing nastiness.

Thank you for providing this space on the internet to talk about the Order of Christ Sophia.
It is so helpful to have a place to express views and for people to read about the Order and whether it is a good place for them and what to expect from such a place.
It helps to see the language control that , at least seems to me, to be so defensive.
I would say that I found the website on my own. There seems to be no effort by a “group” that is undermining these postings. Just people who have been hurt by the Order and their ways of working.
My heart goes out to those that stand aside and watch their loved ones get confused about what is real spiritual growth and what is half real and halkf imposed by the reflections of their teacher.
I proppose that people really learn about spiritual teachers before they take one on.

Dear A Mom,

If you have absolutely no desire to control your daughter, what I said probably doesn't refer to you. I was more talking about those parents who have pulled stunts like going on TV or such things because they are unhappy with how their adult children are living.

Know though that just because you don't think you're trying to influence your daughter doesn't mean she doesn't feel like you are. Many times parent/child relationships can be so complicated because of the expectations and extended history that characterize them.

In my own relationship with my parents, I have more than once felt like they were not leaving me free to live my life as I wished. When I brought this up to them, almost invariably they said they had no desire to control me and wanted me to be independent. And yet, I still felt controlled. I could not deny my experience and feelings, and would have felt profoundly disrespected if they would not have listened to me and flat out told me I was wrong. That would have felt like what I mean by “controlling” too. Like only they were right, and if I didn't see it as they saw it, I was wrong, and I just needed to come to their way of seeing things. That's not leaving me free to be me.

This is part of the subleties I refer to. I say just ask your daughter. Open up the lines of communication and be willing to truly hear what she has to say. Ask her why she feels like she can't visit with you. There surely is a reason. Let her know you want to have a real adult-to-adult relationship with her - meaning you respect her feelings and thoughts as equally as your own. As a daughter myself, this is what I would desire. Wouldn't you?

Sincerely,
Mary

Book suggestions illustrating Student/Teacher relationships:

• “The Last Barrier” - by Reshad Feild
• “The Way of the Peaceful Warrior” - by Dan Millman
• “Autobiography of a Yogi” - by Paramhansa Yogananda

Others?

Another book
A Path with Heart
Jack Kornfield
Has several complete chapters on teachers and students and communities.

I have been reading this website for a week now as a silent observer. I too am somehow connected with this “order” as they call themselves. In the helping profession, they may be more of a “disorder” as they inflict harm, pain and suffering, and confusion on the balance they had experienced at home. Now I know that many have suffered at home and wish for a better life. I find it to be cooincidental that many “order of Christ sofia” members come from an environment where there is some sort of suffering, whether it be parental control, low self image, depression, etc. But how many claim to join merely for the spiritual journey. And how many CHURCHES of GOD have a website such as this confronting its members, founders, etc. that they are hurting the family members. For example, children…food for order's thought.

Books to check out about the teacher/student relationship. Both are personal accounts of the disillusionment and spiritual abuse that can occur:
The Direct Path by Andrew Harvey - his message - you can have a direct relationship with God without an “intermediary”

The Mother of God by Luna Turlo, the mother of self-styled American “guru” Andrew Cohen

I, too, am a minister of this Order and I have chosen so of my own accord, with a sound and happy mind and heart. I can honestly say that I understand the perspectives given here of the hurt, anger, and disagreement you feel the Order and its members has caused you. Speaking from my own experience of my relationships, I found before I came to the Order that all of my relationships had the same characteristics: I allowed myself to be put in a “box” of how I interact with each person in my life (and vice versa), and there were these silent “deals” we would make with each other that enabled us to get our needs met, and understandably so. I would venture to say that most, if not all, relationships are based on these things. As I looked at these “deals” and “boxes” that my relationships were rampant with, I saw all of the places where I went small, where I gave over my power, where I took it, where I was mean, etc. The more I saw, the more I wanted those relationships changed. Changing the deals and boxes I described above can be jostling and quite alarming to both parties, but especially the ones on the other end that hasn't initiated the change. The thing is, when those things are looked at and changed, that change was best for the relationship because my interactions were cleaner and those friends didn't feel the weight of the restrictive box I had placed them in for so many years.

Point being, I'm suggesting that those who have been hurt and angered by the Order and/or its members could have felt the jostling of those relationship changes I named above. Obviously the person wouldn't have made a change in the relationship if they didn't want to or think it best. Any time we are freed from something, such as a “box” or “deal”, both parties (whether conscious of the change or not) will feel the awkwardness of the change as it is so new. The end result leaves a cleaner, healthier relationship whether each participant sees it or not; the relationship is being purged of the sticky relating, where they are seen as the source of all love, all attention, all peace, all everything, and this is not where we should be looking.

This is what my relationships are like now. I can completely love my friends and family and feel loved in return, and respect their decisions with whatever they choose in life because I know they are doing what they think is best, I can see God in each and every person, and at the same time, I'm not “needing” anything from them in return. Those are the kinds of relationships I have worked on creating in my life. It didn't feel comfortable to have the other kind of relationships where one or both parties lost their power and right to fully express without the fetters we placed on each other.

Carin~

You say that you are doing what is best for you and you are now at peace, relationships are better, etc. My question for you is…how many of those past relationships that you had did you sever as a result of your new ideology? Can you say that quest for new “freedoms”, getting out of the box you put yourself in, etc. helped those around you as well, or just you? If your order is helping so many, than why are there so many crying for help in the wake of the “freedoms” from the boxes you have broken out of? Again, what about the severed relationships with family members, friends, etc. who are getting smashed as a direct result of the “me centered”, “everything is for me” attitude that I have grown accustomed to seeing from your members? I have met more than a few members. What about the children who may be left behind? What about their suffering that they have to endure while your members get “healthy”?

Questions:
Would someone in the Order define love?
Would someone define healthy relationships?
Would someone define why family and friends of the past can't be a part of someone's life once they are in the order?
Can someone define why the teachers/priests/deacons are the most knowing and are the most capable in telling what others should do?
This would be very helpful.

As a family member of an OCS member, I'm having a hard time dealing with the array of emotions that I must deal with as a result of the spiritual decisions that my sibling is making. First, I am fearful that I may forever loose a beloved person whom I should be able to continue to grow with and enjoy the numerous remaining experiences of our lives together. Second, I'm very hurt that my family and I have been pushed away because we can't offer a perfect relationship. Third, I am angry that I have to witness my parents fear and pain at the thought of having lost thier precious child. Worst of all is the sadness I feel for the immediate family of my sibling. They are the ones who truly need my sibling's love and attention.
If the moment comes when my sibling disassociates from the OCS, much of the fear, hurt, anger and sadness will be erased from my life. Not to be selfish, but I think that that would be best for my spiritual development.

Waiting for the response to my questions posted ?
Defintion of love?
Why outsiders,i.e. family, friends get excluded?
Why Guidance must be taken from teachers, priests,deacons before one learns his/her own?
Addition:
What is compassion, the world may not seem the same when you experience spiritual growth in this Order ….but for outsider:
What is their the experience of compassion?
Of love?
What you can give?
Share?
What is with the “exclusion and distance” from loved ones before that now separates(some of you)… now that you are in the Order?
Who does the Creator refuse?
Why are not you a vehicle for healing instead of hurt?
Is the letter writing healing? Truly healing?
For all?
What other methods would be more helpful?
Prayer?
Is the love available or exclusive?
Are you not able to be with others who do not “see”?
They are in pain. They don't “get” it. Be with them.
Help them along.
Sincerely,
Ann

Dear Missing You~ I am sorry about your circumstance with your sibling. Too often cults pressure their members to leave behind what they call poor relationships, transgressions, etc. You are collateral damage, unfortunately and the order does not care about you, me, my friend, etc. All they care about is themselves. Also unfortunate, is that they too will be judged. One of the commandments Thou shalt not place any god before me. This is violated daily, is a sin, and God will judge them accordingly, to His way, no matter what the order says. Again, I am truly sorry for you and your family.

To Ann~

You have a lot of hurt showing in your comments. I am willing to bet that the order will not sincerely answer you, but rather either ignore your statements, or call them an attack as they characteristically often do. This is their M.O.

To Spouse~

Your spouse is, as I believe, being brainwashed by the order/disorder of the CHRIST sophia. They use psychological manipulation, that is, the person feels better due to therapy they receive and attribute it to spiritual healing. It is classic, but most unfortunate for you and your family.

To friend of a FRIEND:
I know they won't answer my questions.They never seem to answer a direct question. It always seems like a side step or a re-direct question. Part of the ambiguity,part of the manipulation to keep you going. I hope that anyone “teetering” about the Order may gain some insight if they are reading these posts.Which is why I posted questions. It seems once you are deeply in, you are too sunk into their pattern of thinking you can't see the other side. I was there. Ann

I would really like to hear from family
and friends of OCS members who have said they now have healthier relationships since being in the Order. I would like to hear something positive from someone who is not in the Order. I am not a Buddhist, but I have great respect for those following the Buddhist path…the same goes for many religious practices. I am not someone who opposes everything that I don't personally practice or believe. I have yet to hear from someone (outside of the Order) who thinks the Order is creating more love and kindness in the world.
To members of the Order: I believe the Order's teaching is to dissolve the ego, so to allow God and pure love to shine through you, correct? Other practices (Buddhism) do the same thing and I don't believe it's a negative thing. Is it possible, though,
that the Order really doesn't help to rid you of
your ego. I see much defensiveness in the responses…..isn't this the ego talking? Could it be your ego that is not allowing you to admit you are hurting others, and your ego that won't let you admit you made an error in judgement in being in the Order. It's your ego that is keeping you stuck. I've met Peter Bowes….he's very
egotistical. A dear friend of mine (in the Order) saw this in Peter, and yet dismissed it…because he saw the good intentions in the
other members of OCS (and he was promised self-realization in 2 - 3 years). Please take a good honest look at any spiritual “master” teacher before chosing him/her. Wouldn't it be better to choose a path taught by someone who folllows his own teachings?
Please consider this.
With love

I get the feeling that the order is not allowed to respond anymore inspite of our questions/concerns. I would say that I am not surprised.

Friend of a Friend,
You wrote:
I get the feeling that the order is not allowed to respond anymore inspite of our questions/concerns. I would say that I am not surprised.

Actually, we have free will- as all humans have been granted. No one has told anyone to stop communicating here- that would be a violation of free will.
From what I read above much of the talk has not been productive or positive, thus, not to engaging.

To Order Member:
Precisely. You didn't answer any questions. Put to the door ….you don't respond, you use the Order of response which is non-responsive, seemingly cloaked, unclear …. I encourage direct dialog and response to my questions? Is this so hard? Are my questions so un-interesting?Kindly suggest engaging conversation.I feel very engaged in my questions.Are they invalid? I feel my questions are very positive, I invite your response. Thank you. Ann

To Member of the Order: I do want to understand. Please explain to me how it can be free will if you must ask for permission in order to do simple things like go for coffee or to a movie (my friend in OCS feels he has to do this). Are you saying that he really doesn't need to? I will tell him this….that another member said it isn't necessary to ask for permission (or as he calls it: “seek guidance”)….perhaps he's misunderstanding. And if you do “seek guidance” is it OK not to follow it? This puzzles me and doesn't appear to me to be free will. Thank you for engaging in a dialogue about this.

In response to mindful: Guidance is used by myself and others to help us act in accord with God's will to the best of our ability. I have never felt that this practice has limited my freedom. Rather it affords me new options that I never would have otherwise found if I had not asked. I am glad to bring God into more aspects of my life in this manner.

I would also like to respond to ann and 'spouse' who have both made pointed comments about secrecy and claim that OCS members avoid making direct statements (which I don't get because at the same time we are accused of stirring up trouble in our families by confronting things that others would rather avoid). I know you both. You have both had opportunities to question me in person about your concerns; one of you very recently. I'm not used to this sort of internet exchange and prefer in- person contact which feels like a more humane way to air concerns. You want me to answer a series of questions but wouldn't ask me those things to my face. I encourage you to speak what is on your mind next time we meet.

I am trying very hard to make a difference on this earth, to direct my thoughts, feelings and statements in a manner that will create more love on this planet. I know I'm not perfect, but I am a stronger, more effective and loving person since being taught about the nature of God and how to open up to God at OCS. For me being part of OCS has made real the statement: “Love God with all your heart…” And I wouldn't be able to do this without loving all of God's children. In my life this has meant different things with different people. Some I needed to confront; some I needed to learn to accept as they are. In either case I have never been encouraged to try to force change on anyone.
Each one of us makes choices. I respect your choices to seek God as you wish, to accept or not accept me. Please respect my choices. My family and friends do. Yet, I see that each one responds from their own capacity to listen and love. We are all different in this. Some have made a commitment to looking at and working through limitations; some adamently resist seeing the pain they have caused others. My prayer is to learn to love you all more deeply.
Sincerely, Rachel.

To: Rachel
From: Ann
How do I know you? I am not aware of any recent contact….in years…. And very willing to dialog.
Should we switch to personal e-mail?
My address is: dillona@sbcglobal.net

To Rachael: Are you able to disagree with the guidance that if offered? Can you chose to do something else? Have you ever gone against guidance?

Once, last year, I ran into my friend from OCS accidentally….we went for coffe and while we were enjoying a nice conversation, in a rather surprised fashion, he said that he “didn't feel guilty about our meeting and having coffee together”….what we were doing was not OK with OCS and I could see that it made him nervous. Since then I haven't seen him (we've spoke on the phone a few times). Why would this happen? I believe he didn't want to disolve our friendship, and yet he has. Is this the kind of love and companssion that the OCS teaches? As I've said I would like to hear from family and friends who are not in the Order, who believe that their
relationships are now better with the Order member. I'm still trying to understand.

To Rachel and Member of Order:

Neither of you have answered any of my questions, yet you seem to cite God and hide behind religion as an “answer” to our questions. The frustrating piece for me is that I am also very religious, however isn't the Word of God so important that you are being asked, nee, told by Him to spread the Word to your fellow man? I could try to quote scripture, however, you may just try to use Peter as god himself. This is sinful in itself! Ann, spouse, mindful, and many others want answers. I feel that you and the order hide behind your order and refuse to allow others in. For example, when you have retreats in California or Florida. If the family member is not a member, then why the secrecy? Shouldn't family members be afforded the common courtesy of being able to share with their loved ones? How can marriages sustain a relationship when secrets are being kept, information being withheld, people being scrutinized? I will wait for an answer.
By the way, I am not ashamed to tell you that I have told my fellow Christians and churchmembers about this site. We are all praying for you and the families for which feel negatively affected by you.

the order has taken another…sad…ruined a family again!!!

Friend of a friend,
I have heard (in the USA) that anywhere from 1 out of 2 to 1 out of 3 marriages end in divorce. The numbers are almost as high when people marry for a second time. Go search the web and look at the statistics.
Can anyone seriously say that the problem has anything to do with a persons spiritual beliefs or practices? How many “sad ruined families” are out there that have mainstream spiritual practices or no spiritual practice at all? You are looking in the wrong area if you want to be part of the solution.

Dear Reality, Perhaps you'd have a point if Friend was only talking about another marriage breaking up. While I don't know his/her specific story…from what I've read and what I've seen it appears that many, if not most, of the people hurt by OCS are not spouses….they are parents, siblings and friends who have been alienated from their children, their brothers and sisters, and their dear friends. That's hardly the same as saying that the reality is only 1 in 3 marriages last anyway. Perhaps you could look closely at what is happening here and you would understand. I would invite you to consider this….with love.

I agree with the last posting and would like to add that although I have asked for contact and clearer questions from the OCS people the communication stops.No one has answered or replied. There is no question in my mind that they have some spiritual growth I question why the families and friends are seemingly necessary to let go of. I encourage that if interested they look deeper into themselves why that separation is necessary. I understand and have experienced that part of letting go. Of material things, old patterns, expectations, but it seems to “stuck” in the Order and seems a reflection of the Teachers need and not the need of the students necessarily…..this is where harm is done…..and it is NOT growth,* it hurts,is harmful to others and is ” stunted” spiritual growth.I have never experienced more growth then being with the people that love me and yes, I have changed, but it is so much richer….I chose them to be involved with as a soul and they are learning so much… as they can,this is your gift to them, not something to walk from. (The methodology and understanding of the Teachers is thwarted and not healthy and you already “Know” that)* That is serving and healing and to not address that in a loving way is something I encourage you to address. Research and contemplate…..if you choose.Read others books, information on the web, explore the possibility it can be different. I survived the group and believe me their are places I have found much richer and more compassionate. The teachers in the OCS ar not the only ones and not the fastest path and not the end all. Ann

If The OCS is Loving God with heart mind and soul and if God is first in all things, than why dishonor and cut off family members?

God is within Fathers, Mothers sisters, brothers, and friends, and all your acquaintances. They are all a reflection of you and your Dharma path.

The family you came from is a part of your personal Dharma and any one, (Even if he / she is a teacher) who comes between you and your Dharma is incurring a debt upon them selves.

I encureg and invite you to write positive letters to reunite your self with your loved ones.

One like this:
Dear Mom Dad Sister Brother, Friend I love you so deeply and I miss your smiling heart I am coming home. I am so grateful to you for being in my life and I miss your care.
I treasure you like my soul and I love you just the way you are. Nothing you’ve ever done will change my love for you. There is nothing I would change about you.

I see the infinite greatness in your soul and I want to be home to share our heart to hearts together again, these are the things that have giving life to our family tradition.

Your name————————————-

This is how we lay our life’s down for our friends.

Liberation comes as a result of an unconditional relationship to all things. Enlightenment isn’t attained by focusing on our short comings or by picking apart our psyche or blaming or parents. But by having the courage to release the past and live fully in the present. The fulfillment of realization doesn’t come by trying to be perfect but by Perfecting Being.

The freedom of choices is choosing freedom from every avenue, considering the well fair of all circumstances, and concerning its affects on all those around you.
In other words if there’s something unloving going on than it’s not love and should be changed.

A friend of an ex member.

To friend and a buddhist,
Have you considered that it is the families, through their actions that have caused there own problems? For example, if every time you spoke to your family they accused you of being brainwashed because of your beliefs and treated you as such how long should you let them do this? Are you not building negative karma for enabling them to treat you poorly? Every conversation with them had the undertone that I was a fool. At every point I turned a blind eye toward their negativity and forgave. In my case, I endured it for well over a year before I said enough.
If I did as you suggested and wrote a letter like that, I would be opening the door for them to harass me more about my beliefs and would be telling them that what they have done is ok. It was not my love that changed for them, it was their conditonal love that set rules about who I was and what I should be like when I was with them.
Blessings to you.

To “consider”,
I understand the need to remove oneself from unhealthy relationships. My concern is that I have always been supportive of my friend in the order yet she continued to cut off from friends, family members, and myself. I shared years of friendship and memories and love with this person and have always had an open mind to her path. I can't imagine anything in our relationship that would cause separation, and if there were any reason, I have always been open to talk and listend.I miss her and am both concerned and confused. Please help me to understand why supportive friends and family members have lost contact with their loved one in the order.

My experience is similar to concerned's. My friend and I had a healthy, loving, relationship. I supported his desire to grow spiritually. We talked in great length about it. I'm on a different path, but I realize there are many paths…and so did he. He was hopeful that we could continue to at least meet for coffee and still get together but after he sought guidance about it and was told no, he stopped all contact with me. He was very conflicted about it, but felt compelled…in fact I would say afraid…not to follow the guidance.
This is when I decided the Order was unhealthy and yes, then I did speak against it when I did get a chance to talk to him (which was seldom…and only when I called him). I would invite anyone in the Order, who says their family and/or friends are speaking negatively about OCS to try and remember when it started…perhaps it began when the teachers in OCS stopped letting them have relationships outside of the Order. Please consider this….with love.

To Consider:
Embarassed? with people and their opinions? family and being considered in a cult?Love and True Compassion would be the real truth and you would have no shame or problem with anyone…..this is what the OCS does, they have some truth but it is not enlightment and it is not love, I encourage you to re-read these messages at this site and to read Jack Kornfields book A Path with Heart. Or search out Father Paul's lessons on the internet of Cosmic Consciousness, or Sam Lewis ….you will find a different bent and one that is not attached to the Order experience that Peter presents and Claire expouses…..that is how they learned it doesn't mean you have to go that way. I just want to communicate options…in my memory the group gave no options and every teacher or teaching outside the Order was not as “good” or “fast”.
Has it been introduced to you that you are in the “only” group that has the teachings or that if you left you were somehow tainted , you may become ill, or somwhow you have disappionted Jesus and Mary……that is a controlling, manipulating and untrue statement.It certainly does not reflect Love. Ann

I have been away and sorry for the absence. I want to help my fellow “collateral damage” victims with the cult. It is a cult, does damage like a cult, gets ornry and defensive like a cult, and they respond like a cult. Like the old saying…looks like a duck…quacks like a duck, then it's a duck. WE all know the truth. However, they do not see it for what it is because they are “in” it. They will have to wait years before they can see the damage they've done…burning the path (bridges).
My friend said it was not brain washing. I disagree. Peter is not God. He can claim to be all he wants, but the bible says that there is only one God. My God is a fair and just God, but also expects obediance. Peter is not being obediant…too bad for him. I will pray for you all.

My church goes out of its way to recruit new members and has an open door policy. I am inviting any one of you to come. No strings. Just let me know.

OCS is a cult.

“Father” Pete is not a priest, reverend, or any other kind of trained or knowledgeable man of God. He is a disbarred psychologist from Wisconsin! Hello, can anyone say David Koresh, or other similar self appointed messengers of God? One of his henchwomen in the Boston aea actually calls herself “Mother Mary”, who is herself a midwife, again with no seminary or other evangelical credentials.

It is sad that persons like these take advantage of the weak of heart, those who search for understanding of all things, and those who simply cannot live without the structure that religion provides for weak minded individuals.

Pat - How right you are! OCS is a psycho/pseudo-spiritual cult. Peter wasn't able to cure his patients so he conned them into joining his cult. He continues to collect the emotionally unstable and keep them in his mental institution with no hope of release. If you read Clare's book it screams, “I am a paranoid schizophrenic!” She will be incensed (anger and hate are her favorinte words) that I have dissed her order. Well, in her book she brags about receiving Communion in the Catholic Church without benefit of Baptism. That practice is very disrespectful to faithful Catholics.

Hey, there, OCS. I was reading The Edge and noticed that the Milwaukee OCS is now marketing itself as the “Milwaukee Center of Light”. What's with that? Anyone with any info care to explain or comment beyond the usual “we got guidance” rap? I'm looking for some true info here, not propaganda. Public pressure? Bill collectors? We're interested so please fill us in.
Hope to hear from you soon. Burned

Wow, this is a pretty cool page. Power of the internet, etc. I hadn't read the postings above before I added that question about the Milwaukee Center of Light. I hope someone answers that soon.

But that made me think of another question I had. Why is Rev. Margaret no longer listed at the Denver recruitment center? After that flap on the Milwaukee news last year, you'd have thought she was in for the duration. What gives?

What's with the whole turnover thing. If there's really only 75 members (according to one of the above postings) that's not such a hot record for all these years is it? I'd call it a bit short of a major movement. A lot of people don't seem to like it much.

Well, I hope somebody writes back because I liked Rev.Margaret, with her love of birds, and would lilke to know what happened to her.

Don't forget about that name change thing, OK?

Don't know why they changed their name. There seems to be an overall rebranding. Perhaps to avoid the negative publicity? After all, people who google “Center of Light” aren't going to get the sites with the negative stories.

As for Rev. Margaret, my understanding is that she left her husband earlier this year, but I don't know details. Another OCS marriage ended. I never got the impression there were ever that many married people in the OCS to begin with. How many are left?

I have also heard that Rev. Margaret left her husband…and I agree that marriages and other relationships don't last in the Order. The last time I spoke with my friend in the Order he reminded me that it's not healthy to have “attachments”. That's a major misuse of the Buddhist philosophy, if you ask me. The Buddhist monk Thich Nhat Hahn has a lot to say about the importance of family and maintaining good relationships with them. It's very sad that OCS incorrectly uses good teachings to keep people separate from their loved ones.

An excellent question about the name change…I think most reasonable people will just shake there heads in disbelieve …such nerve the OCS has! It's gotta be a marketing ploy. Then again it's possible that Peter and Clare actually believe they are enlightened. From my experience, OCS is not about love and not about enlightenment.

It's been a long time since anyone in the Order has responded here. It's unfortunate, but I think there has been given a “spiritual” direction to stop the communication….or am I wrong?

I'm sure you are correct that Herr Commandant would not like the troops fratenizing with the enemy. Once they're in, they're in. People can only break free if their self esteem grows enough to be tired of being controlled (rare); or if the outside connections are strong enough (some have left to preserve marriages and families) or they just get tired of the hypocrisy and being pushed around by a couple of spiritual bullies. But people have to come out on their own. Don't hold your breath.

I would like to add to your comments listed above this one that I agree with both of you in all accounts. Sounds to me that the OCS group is not allowed to respond. I challenged them earlier last month and got a minor bite, however what I do know as it seems that you do also is that if they are told to be silent, they are. They do not dare to have their own free opinions or free will! Give them that and they may disagree eventually. Sounds to me like a mini communist-socialist group, doesn't it?

I encourage the commentary.
I believe the members do read the this site.
They may have been “ordered” in the Peter and Clare way to not respond.
That means that,again, they are told not to respond or look at other options for personal growth.
Learning how to grow is very important.
Being in touch with your true self is paramount….
Following a teachcer's guidance is not growth
it is being a parrot ….a puppet.
You cannot let go under duress.
You let go entirely when you completely understand the means.
Anything else is simply pleasing another to gain approval.
Individuality and soul growth for your own path is the key.
The only key that will give you enlightment.
True enlightment.
Real compassion.
Real understanding of how to love.
Ann

Wonderful comments Ann! Thank you!
I hope the members of OCS are still reading this site!

I have been reading the last few postings and thought about the lack of response from OCS. I suspect that they feel this is just a continuation of their “persecution” by those of the “material world”. Believing as they do that their path follows the pattern of Jesus' life, in some strange way, this re-inforces their belief that what they are doing is “right”.

I have to say, that in their defense, what I was taught by them was NEVER taught to me by any other religous or spiritual group. Though I chose not to stay a part of their organization, I have come away with tools to continue along the Inner Path that I am extremely grateful for.

I know that there is much anger and hurt out there from the loss of loved ones to the OCS and my reply may trigger this, but I hope not.

I kind of think of them as a mixed bag, good with the questionable, (my husband thinks all bad). But I think that they really are not worried what the world thinks because they feel their vision and mission is beyond ours.

I have been reading the last few postings and thought about the lack of response from OCS. I suspect that they feel this is just a continuation of their “persecution” by those of the “material world”. Believing as they do that their path follows the pattern of Jesus' life, in some strange way, this re-inforces their belief that what they are doing is “right”.

I have to say, that in their defense, what I was taught by them was NEVER taught to me by any other religous or spiritual group. Though I chose not to stay a part of their organization, I have come away with tools to continue along the Inner Path that I am extremely grateful for.

I know that there is much anger and hurt out there from the loss of loved ones to the OCS and my reply may trigger this, but I hope not.

I kind of think of them as a mixed bag, good with the questionable, (my husband thinks all bad). But I think that they really are not worried what the world thinks because they feel their vision and mission is beyond ours.

To been there, done that

Thanks for sharing your experience.

I agree that the OCS teaches its students to expect to be attacked for their spiritual choices. Actually, from what I've seen, they teach them to fear their loved ones as people who disrespect them, want to control them, and who will even kidnap and brainwash them. OCS students are told to carry cell phones so they can dial 911 if they are kidnapped and deprogrammed. And they are told to be grateful for this testing of their faith, to “be strong” and not let themselves be turned away by those who would “destroy them.”

I frankly am disgusted by such manipulative use of fear. In my opinion, that's not spiritual — it's fascist.

I also disagree that the OCS is “not really worried” about what others think. I think the OCS is threatened by others sharing their negative experiences. The OCS responds to websites like this one and news stories about it by telling the students to “take action” to counter the bad press. The OCS tries to discredit those who express negative experiences — both to its students and publicly. The OCS tries to get websites to erase negative postings (as documented in this very thread). And — most cruelly — the OCS pushes students to cut out loved ones from their lives if their loved ones dare to share negative feelings and opinions about the OCS. I know because it happened to me and most others in my family.

The OCS cares very much about what people think about it. The OCS is afraid, and works very hard to control what is known and said about it.

Dear Cut Out,
I left the OCS just as things started heating up. After I left I had heard of attempts by family members to woo their loved ones away from the OCS but had never heard of an abduction. It does surprise me about the fear they are propagating among their students. But many things changed about the OCS over the time I was with them. Telling them they are being tested, that doesn't surprise me at all.

I am sorry to hear how you and your family have been so hurt, your hurt is very evident. It is sad that your loved one cannot appreciate it for what it is instead of thinking this is a means of controlling them. All I can do is pray for you and them, that you can mend this wall between you. I still have my own marital issues I am working on, we have come a long way but are we healed? no, not yet. Those wounds created are very deep and hard to mend.

Blessings to you.

Hi — No — OCS students were not TOLD to not respond, but really — what's the point? How much time needs to be invested in the same circle? You learn from experiences or you object to them. You shed light on issues the best you can and live your life. You continue on your own way and bring your growth with you, or you focus on a chosen path and add that pattern to ways that are meaningful on the deepest level to which you can open. No one who's been searching and becoming clearer for any amount of years (or lifetimes) is living with blinders on. Peace … and Relax.
There's lots to learn.

Dear Still a student,
May you find, on your path, compassion and love for all beings…not just those you (or your
teachers) think are worthy. Perhaps you didn't intend this, but your comments felt rather condescending and lacking compassion. Is this what you've been learning in your years (or lifetimes) of searching? If so, perhaps you should consider other teachers. peace and love.

My brother, father and step mother became involved with the order this last summer. My brother dropped a full ride to the school that my sister and i attended and moved to California. My father and stepmother seem very busy. We all had a little of an altercation when my brother dropped out because he was very excited about his education and returning to school at the beginning of the summer and then everything changed. I am scared for my family but at the same time they are all adults now and i want to have faith in their decisions.
They were very defensive when criticized about my brothers decision not to continue school. I did some research on the internet and told them to look at this site and others. One in particular being the actual document of Peter Bowes losing his license in Wisconsin. They said they had already seen them and to my surprise, they were not concerned at all.
I myself see this as a manipulative situation but i have also been through situations such as those wether with a parent or partner. One thing i know is that you can tell someone what you think is the truth until you are blue in the face, but if they do not want to hear it then all you are gaining is the ability to tell them “i told you so” later. The only thing to do is enjoy the good things that remain and wait for them to come out of there own volition and be there for them when they need help picking up the pieces.
or at least that is my stance for now. i would love to hear some feed back, however, since it has been very hard to come to this conclusion.

thank you

I would like to add to what i wrote earlier this month and clarify some things. I have talked to my brother at length about his decision and my words before may have been taken in the wrong light. i have now come to the realization that i must support my brother in this and other things that i may not necessarily believe in, because ultimately these are decisions that he must make for himself.

i love my brother dearly and hope the best for him and i have told him about my reservations concerning the order that he is involved with. This is not to say that i do not have reservations about my own life as well.

i guess what i am trying to say is that despite the evidence that the order might be a cult, my brother seems to be genuinely happy and enjoying his new life direction. As far as i am concerned, that is enough for me.

My question is this. How can we, as people that are outside the order, speak against the word of those who we love? When does our concern become control? When does our love turn into a barrier?

i hope that i have clarified my question and that someone can give me a little positive feedback.

respectfully (hopefully) to both parties,

montana

Dear Montana,
I struggled with the same concerns when my loved one was first in the Order. I offered my support in his efforts to grow emotionally and spiritually. He told me that being in the Order would make him a better person in his relationships, so it would actually help our relationship. Unfortunately, what I found, was
that the Order still saw me as a threat because I didn't want to join and they guided him in a direction away from me. I don't want to frighten you but I don't think you've experienced the control and the damage the Order has on relationships its members try to have with family and friends outside of the Order….yet.
What I've experienced is that every move the member makes is done with “guidance”. I don't believe that speaking out against mind control is
speaking against the word of a loved one, though I would agree that you have to be extremely careful in how you approach your brother with regard to the Order. If he feels you have any thoughts that OCS might be a cult….he will relay this to someone who is assigned to “guide” him and then he (they) may decide that it'd be best not to see you anymore. I mistakenly did this and now can no longer have contact with my loved one. A good book that I read too late is Steven Hassan's, “Releasing the Bonds: Empowering People to Think for Themselves”. It talks about how to keep
the lines of communication open with those in a mind control cult. OCS is definitely a mind control cult. I also think it's very important for you to be there for your brother and to continue to express your love and support. May peace and love be with you.

Is a family member or friend in my case ever invited to the ordination ceremony? My friends family has not and I am curious as to why not.
(They are all on good terms except for the fact that she has distanced herself over the years)
And why does a couple need permission from the OCS to invite family to their wedding?

In honor of election day … and, yes, I am a Kerry supporter … consider the following similarities between the OCS and the Bush administration…

President Bush believes he was made President by divine will, and believes he has unquestionable and direct knowledge of God's will.
Father Peter and Mother Clare believe they were made “master teachers” by divine will, and believe they have unquestionable and direct knowledge of God's will.

The Bush administration uses abstract fear of terrorist attack to distract and cow citizens.
The OCS uses abstract fear of kidnapping and deprogramming to distract and cow its students.

When the Bush administration is questioned, it accuses the critics of not supporting U.S. troops.
When the OCS is questioned, it accuses the critics of not supporting their loved ones.

When the Bush administration is criticized, it questions the critic's patriotism.
When the OCS is criticized, it questions the critic's love of the OCS student affected.

The Bush administration pushes its agenda forward in the name of principle, but ignores the cost of that agenda without apology.
The OCS defends its practices in the name of principle, but ignores the cost of those practices without apology.

The Bush administration requires supporters to sign “loyalty oaths” to gain admission to rallies and other events.
The OCS requires its students to pledge and demonstrate their loyalty to continue attending classes and services.

President Bush stammers and gets defensive, irritated or angry when “off script.”
… Well, see what happens when you get an OCS minister off his or her “script.”

The Bush administration says it is a compassionate administration, but this is belied by its policies.
The OCS says it is compassionate, but this is belied by the impact of its practices on families of students.

VOTE!

I've also noticed the similarities between
the Bush administration and OCS...thank you for stating it so well. I find it very frightening. My goal is to not give up on my loved one in OCS or my country….even if at this moment I'm feeling sad and confused as to what to do next. I still believe that reason and honesty and love will prevail.

Dear Concerned,
I have been to ordinations where family members were invited as well as to those the only family present was the Order. I suppose this is most likely dependent on the relationship one has maintained with the OCS member and whether it is felt the interest in attending is in support of their decision or just there to spread negativity. Also, ordinations that occur on retreats usually don't make family and friend attendance possible because they rotate retreat sites and can be costly for others to attend.
As for Wedding, are you talking about a Spiritual Wedding or just a regular uniting 2 people wedding?

Dear Montana,
I have been pondering your letters and thought I would write a few words of possible encouragement. Many of the students who begin with the Order find that they are not meant to be there permanently. This departure is usually a painful process which can leave the former student reeling and with a huge void in their life because the Order filled up so much of their life. At that time, they need you more than you can ever know, they need someone to help ground them back into everyday life, someone to help them not feel like a failure (which is usually how those who leave are protrayed, so when one does leave, doubt is quite prevalent) someone to help them remember that what they learned is still valid and useful. I am not saying this will be the case with your brother, but stay in touch, love him and let him follow his path. He may not need to be there for the rest of his life, if so, he will need your love more than ever then. If he stays with the Order, he will be happy, be happy for him.

One question for Been There Done That: If
it can be so painful and so devasting for someone
to leave the Order…is this not an indication of how unhealthy the Order is and how much of an attachment is created by the Order to the Order?
Healthy spirituality should give us more inner strength to be in society…..not less.

Regarding the previous comment…my personal experience has been that if they feel they can recruit you as a new member, they want you there and will be very welcoming and loving. But even when I was welcome I found that my loved one was very distant and lacking affection when we were together at the center. It was actually very
painful to be at the center with him. And this is because they had told him he was not to have a personal relationship with anyone at that time and he felt compelled ..at least in front of everyone at the center to follow their “guidance”.
I'm not sure how it is with family members. My experience was painful enough that I stopped going to the Center, even if I was still with him (until he moved into an Order house and they had complete control).

To: Been there, done that,
I don't know what a Spiritual wedding is exactly, but what I'm talking about is a joining of two people, a husband and wife within the order.
Thank you for responding.

To: Been there, done that,
I don't know what a Spiritual wedding is exactly, but what I'm talking about is a joining of two people, a husband and wife within the order.
Thank you for responding.

Been There, Done That —
It's good to hear from a former member of the OCS. I appreciate how straightforward you have been in your comments.
My reaction is like mindful's. It's extraordinary how big a part of your life the OCS becomes, and I bet it makes it very hard to even think about leaving. Good for you for not being afraid to move on. I was really put off by the idea that the OCS portrays a student leaving the OCS as having “given up.” That seems like another means of controlling the students. If students think of people who left the OCS as people who couldn't cut it, that would push you to stay involved, wouldn't it?
I've also heard stories of students who weren't attending meetings and classes regularly, or who weren't giving 10% of their income, being called in by the priests, having their commitment questioned, and being told they should examine whether they really were up to doing this.
I wish the Order were more up front about these things.
Been There, Done That, you also describe people who are with the OCS as being happy there. The problem is, at least with my family member, she no longer seems to be happy anywhere else. It also occurs to me that I've known a lot of very happy alcoholics. The fact that alcoholics are happy doesn't compel me to be happy for them.
In any case, I believe we're all in God's hands, regardless of what church we belong to.
Still, this all makes me more grateful than ever to have found a church that allows me to grow at my own pace, in my own way, without threats, without any “in or out” culture, and with lots of loving guidance and support.
I pray that everyone can discover they are already deeply loved and cared for, and that nobody of any consequence is out to attack them. If God is for us, who can be against?

Whoa, this will teach me not to check in sooner. First response is to concerned friend about the wedding. I have to confess I hadn't known of any traditional weddings in the Order during my time there. I hate to speculate or put words out there regarding limiting guests except to guess they may want to limit the guests to those who are happy for the couple in all their pursuits, even those with the Order and do not wish those with negative thoughts or wishes present. I guess you may need the answer for this from a member in the know, or should I say knowing.

To Mindful, I had a hollow place within me that was searching for a direct connection to God. I did not find this anywhere. I read of other people's journeys, there suggestions, etc but I wanted a teacher. They provided a teacher. They gave me what I was searching for. But eventually one has to choose and this can be painful. Not all students stay. From what I understand, when one moves into an Order house they take vows of physical and I guess spiritual chastity to focus on spiritual growth and attainment. It must have hurt very much to have a loved one do this without consulting or explaining this to you. They do teach that God comes before all else.

Dear Cut out, most do not feel that the time devoted to the Order is excessive. Many find the socialization strengthens the bonds of friendship and family they find in the Order. I personally found it the safest place I have ever known. Unfortunately, maybe fortunatley, my husband and children were not part of the Order and so I left. I am happy you have found a church which can provide you with the things you need. Me…..well I am still looking.

As a sibling of a member my feeling are extremely polarized. I have been able to keep up contact with her, but I have my own hermet-esque ways of not really calling people just to chat. I usually need a reason: address to mail present, invitation to event… Then maybe we chat for a few minutes after and its almost like before.

I accept her for who she is, but have to voice my misgivings. that is MY right.

Good things:
she tells me of her happiness and it seems genuine(point OCS)
allowed to still talk with me(not sure)
had someone answer her phone, inclined to believe was to cut off spouse at the corale(hmm)

Bad things:
Blame parents for childhood, I blame 'em too but I thought it was pretty good. I mean I don't blame mom for us being poor. I didn't blame her for having to work so hard to support us both, that I barely saw her.

All I know is I love her SOO MUCH its hard to quantify. I'm prolly not making much sense, but I don't have anyone to discuss this with, who doesn't sound like a Right Wing Booster Club. the parents have been pretty much cut off, but they both are causing it in their own ways, I don't blame her for that. I'm just scared of losing her. It was always “us AND them”. Now I am just “me” or “them” I am not sure which.

The only thing keeping me from declaring cult is her happiness is paramount to me, and she is happy. She says some weird stuff, but I accept her, its just stuff I would have never, ever, EVER have expected to come out of her mouth. Ever since grandma took us to church everyday for an entire summer(guess we were the demon-spawn of the fam, heh, and liked it that way) I've never wanted to go near a church.

I have only been able to read about half of this forum(around late august) but the fact that I did notice smoke and mirror tactics from OCS posters made me a little concerned. So I have my own question, which I was informed about from another member:

Do all members really have to draw up the parental blame/”these are all the ways you hurt me” letters?

How did this start?
If it is not policy, then would you say that a majority of the members do them? are encouraged to do them?

sincerly,
Dunerati

PS- to child of member, how old are you now? Which branch did you grow up in? I've noticed pics on the website showing happy kids, but understand about marketing.

PPS- are there any male preist/ministers besides the one guy?

PPPS- does anyone understand the meat and potatoes of this order that differentiates them from other christian sects? I heard that they think christ was a woman, but is that it? All I know about this is the name and a bunch of opinions. I'm just really confused about it.

For Dunerati,
I can only tell you of my experience with a loved one who has been in the Order for almost 3 years now….who is 55 years old. I haven't seen him for over a year, but when we were still able to talk he would tell me about the priests and teachers asking him about his childhood. He had loving memories of his mom (who has been dead now for many years) but they kept asking him to think about the negative/painful memories…saying that his parents must have done something harmful and that he is probably just suppressing it. He was a bit puzzled and confused…unsure why they kept asking him when he told them he couldn't remember anything. and then he began saying that they must be right…something bad probably happened to him as a child. I just told him that it was OK to think well of his mom, and to remember her with
love.
I've heard that Peter (Father Peter) was raised in a very disfunctional family and as a result doesn't believe families are good for people. I took a class with him once, in which he said that the family is an archaic tradition that should be abolished. I also attended a class at the Order on “Forgiveness” and the first thing Mother Clare asked everyone to do was to accept that all parents have harmed their children…if we can not see that we are not seeing reality. Then…if we are able…we must tell our parents how they have hurt us…a letter is a good way to do this. Then we must evaluate the response before we decide whether or not to forgive them. What really bothered me about this is that Mother Clare was telling us how to feel (angry and hurt) toward our parents without even knowing our situation. I saw it as a means to create more dependence on OCS, not to really help heal family relationships.
I hope that you are able to maintain contact with your sister; she will need your love and support now more than ever. peace and love.

Dear Dunerati,
It does seem that at some point or another a student eventually looks at the wounds inflicted by the parents. I too did the letter to my parents. As a parent myself, I know that I have been far from perfect, as even Peter and Clare would have to admit of their own parenting skills. I expect to someday be called on the carpet by my kids for the time I spent away from them while a part of the Order and their own abdonment issues. In fact, I hope my kids do because it can be very therapeutic IF the parent understands it for what it is, a means of therapy and healing. Most parents do not and try to defend themselves and then the words start to fly and problems escalate. Not really fair to blind side parents like that without at least telling them it is coming and what it is meant to do, help get ones power back. Ultimately though, most parents DO love their kids and have done THE BEST THEY COULD with their own problems, issues and limitations. Don't really think that was supported by the Order, informing the parent that is. I had to send my Mom's letter to her on her birhtday.

As for male priests, yes there are male priests in Boston, Denver, Milwaukee and I think maybe also in San Diego. Only Peter and Clare are Master Teachers still, I believe.

Jesus Christ is believed to be male by the Order. Equal emphasis is placed on the masculine and feminine aspects of God as well as emphasis on Jesus and Mother Mary. The Order encourages students to develop both masculine and feminine energies in themselves that they maybe come balanced.

If I haven't explained this well, I am sorry, I haven't needed to talk about this for awhile so things may not come out as well as hoped.

Dunerati, is your sister involved with the Seattle group? I guess this isn't pertinent, just thinking that may explain why you haven't seen the other male priests.

Don't know if this helps but I hope you stay in touch with your sister. My husband insists that it takes the determination of a loved one to maintain an anchor to the outside world for them. He feels this reminds the student that there are those who really do love them out there and maybe….one day they may see the light. Your sister probably will not see it in this light, but if she knows you love her and want her to be happy, then maybe the lines of communication will remain open.

Good Luck

Wow - Curious questions to Been There, Done That, from an onlooker.

You say you 'had to send' your mother's letter to her on her birthday…what was the rationale behind that date, and why do you say you 'had to' send it then? Did you choose it on your own, or is it a common time for members to send their letters?

As a practice, using that date seems a bit cruel and - in connection to what you say in your post about reclaiming one's power - designed to weaken and bewilder. Sort of a first blow to the back of someone's head; not exactly what I associate with true confrontation, loving and important catharsis, and healing honesty.

Just reflecting more on it, more the actions of those expecting and concerned with being hit back with powerful arguments and difficult questions, than those at peace and confident that their words are strong and their concerns can withstand such confrontation. It carries a very uncomfortable whiff of something self-serving, and of - even if subconsciously - being satisfied by revenge and taking pleasure from causing a loved one pain.

I've gotta say, to my mind that was one of the list's most disturbing statements about the order's mindset.

Thanks, Been There, for your feedback and your posts. I hope my comments don't seem to accuse you; that's not my intention or my emotion at all. That little bit of a story just really struck me and I'm trying to make sense of its significance. It seems a pretty legit criticism of the order's claims of working in entirely good faith to strenthen love and relationships, but feel free to tell me I'm overreacting. I understand that I may be.

Good can come from every spiritual experience in the positive tools they openly offer you, in developing the clarity of your beliefs through considering and choosing to accept or deny certain teachings, and in the trials by fire and painful wounds they can inflict, and that you heal and learn from. You seem to have done damn well in incorporating them all, and I've learned a lot from yours and others' posts.

I'm here because I just learned that an old friend/acquaintance has been part of OCS for a couple years, had never heard of the order, and searched for info - so, nope, skeptical at this point but not led here by anyone.

My Boston friend from IHP, if you're reading this I hope you're well and excercising your awesome laugh and open heart. I've thought of you over the years and sent good thoughts your way. I'll send a personal email to tell you so, too.

Adrienne

I went to a couple OCS workshops and about half the intro classes. Every time, the person in charge was basically just reading off a piece of paper and pausing every now and then to ask if there were questions.
To actually join you had to meet with a priest and go over your whole personal history. I never got to the point where I felt okay doing that.
The people there were nice, but I couldn't really relate to them.
But what really turned me off was the defensiveness. There was talk about putting up a shell around you and keeping out bad influences, and getting rid of things that “don't serve you.” I also heard one of the “teachers” talk about confronting your parents and telling them how they hurt you, and then judging their reaction to decide if you should forgive them. I always thought Jesus wanted us to forgive “seventy times seven” times. That's not what I heard the teachers saying. I talked to my therapist about writing letters to your parents telling them how you were hurt, and he said that was really dangerous. He said he'd heard of having patients write those letters but not actually sending them. He thought writing those letters was going to break apart families, not bring them closer together. I guess that's what happened to a lot of people posting here. I also asked about why people said the OCS broke up families and the priests acted like those were lies and rumors. I can see from the number of people writing here that that wasn't true.
This is not the only mystical group out there. I didn't see anything at the OCS that made me think they were special, but I did hear a lot of things that bothered me.

To Adrienne,
I guess the birhtday ended up being the date required because I didn't want to send it at Christmas. It probably seemed like I was being evasive, and maybe I was, I just thought it seemed hard hearted. Fortunately, my Mom didn't stroke out, she had many health problems and it could very well have pushed her over.

I know many people think the OCS is all bad. I cannot say this is true in my experience. There are many loving and caring people that I miss a great deal and really do not expect to see them again. I wish them all the happiness in the world. If they can get it in the Order, more power to them. I couldn't get it there.

Are their intentions the highest? Are they really trying to help people other than themselves. I think Peter and Clare do feel they are. I think the Priests, Deacons and students think they are. Why does their reality differ from mine? They have different experiences, different filters, they have different goals. They feel God comes first and you must be willing to give up all attachments to do this. I feel that the family I have is a gift from God, good or bad and this is where I belong. Whose reality it real? They would say theirs, mine is just a failure to “let go of the material world”.
All paths lead to God.

So I need to find a path that has room for both my love and desire to serve God and my husband and children. It is possible, through God all things are possible.

Blessings to you.

In my experience with OCS I found many loving and kind people…trying to better themselves..to find a spiritual path.
My feeling is that Peter's goal is probably honorable, but witnessing his methods and the pain that he has inflicted on family and friends and ultimately on members has been one of the saddest experiences of my life. It was difficult for me to let my loved one go…I wanted to stay and help him….but in the end I needed to take care of myself and leaving was the only way to do that. And they would not have allowed him and I to have a relationship even if I had stayed in the Order…that was clear. I have found an equally loving group of people in a Buddhist sangha. The diffence I have found is that people are taught to support and love their family and friends and even their enemies…and to remain in society…for the benefit of all beings. It's a path of self awareness. I didn't find that at OCS.

Hi, Been There…

There's a first line to an Edna St. Vincent Millay poem: “Oh world, I cannot hold thee close enough!” Family and friends are so precious, faults and all - and distraction from and illuminators of our spiritual selves, all combined. I'm with you on the decision to explore that gift.

Thank you for your response. I feel for your loss of friendship and contact, and have no doubt the people you mentioned, and OCS members in general, are good, caring people. I s'pose we, OCS members and parents included, have excellent intentions and love in our hearts, if also a little uncertainty in our judgements and critical thinking skills.

Could I ask a couple more questions? I apologize - I'm still not quite clear on it - is Christmas a sanctioned date for letter sending, then, or have I misunderstood and the sending date is entirely left up to the sender? And are fathers ever sent letters, or only mothers?

Take care, and you and your family be well and happy.

AD

Hi Adrienne
Your questions are not an intrusion. I am more than happy to share my insights and experiences. Christmas is a very important part of the mystical path in the Order. Letters to parents are not a part of it. Students (from my observation) will hit parent letter stage at different times depending on how quickly they are able to get down to the point where the pain caused by the parent/parents starts to surface. It just so happened my time to deal with parental issues was around Christmas. It seems that most people do have issues with each parent, one ususally bigger than the other. The teacher may or may not recommend letters to both parents depending on the issue and how deep the pain seems to go. I hope this makes a little more sense.

I was reading a book over the weekend by Jack Kornfield, “After the Ectascy the Laundry”, his path and those of many Master Teachers includes looking at the pain within, usually caused by parents my guess as well as the painfull experiences we gather as we grow up. It seems universal to look at these things, what differs is how the student is asked to deal with it. Many families have been split apart by it and others pulled toghether by having it all out in the open. I take comfort in knowing that God has guided me thus far and will not give me more than I am able to handle. I hope not to offend anyone but think that when we look at life retrospectively, this seems to be true for most people.

Blessings to you.

Greetings,
This is a fascinating discussion. In previous posts there has been a call for positive comments from someone outside the Order. I guess that could be me. My path and that of OCS have merged and split a number of times in the past five years. I am on a serious spiritual path, and have had training in theological studies (Harvard Divinity School 1996). I have attended OCS services, classes and workshops without any ill effects. My experiences there have been universally uplifting, healing and positive. I have steered a number of friends who were seeking a spiritual path to the group. I do not believe OCS is a cult. I took classes in how to recognize cults. OCS doesn't fit the mold.

The teachings of OCS are rigorous. They are not for everyone. But then, Christianity is not a wimpy religion. Most people forget about what Jesus said in Mark 10: 34-38. Check it out:

34 “Do not think that I have come to bring peace on earth; I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35 For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; 36 and a man's foes will be those of his own household. 37 He who loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; and he who loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me; 38 and he who does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me.”

This is one of what many Christian pastors coyly refer to as “the difficult teachings.” This situation has happened to many of us on a spiritual path, even though we never intended it. All of a sudden our families are jealous of the time we spend with God, and feel threatened that we don't have time to “take care of” them. I was completely astonished and unprepared when it happened to me. All of a sudden, my family accused me of not caring about them anymore, and only caring about “those poor people” I was working with. What's that about?

Eventually, because pretty much everyone in my family is healthy, intelligent and compassionate, we worked through it. But there was a long period of mutual anger and resentment that we had to muck about in before we came out the other side.

I welcome questions about OCS and will be happy to make myself useful as an interested, informed outsider. Thanks to everyone for their thoughtful examination of this fascinating modern gnostic sect.

For Rev Jan,
Thank you for sharing your experiences with OCS. I am curious…you're an ordained minister, correct? May I ask what religion?
peace and love.

For mindful,
Not ordained. Trained Unitarian. Been working professionally in community ministry and community organizing since 1996.

For Rev. Jan,
Thank you for your response. You said that you have attended many classes at OCS. Did you ever take one of their classes on Forgiveness? The class I attended was taught by Mother Clare. She
gave instructions on how to write letters to family describing the hurt that was caused them…and then to not forgive or perhaps even talk to their family until an undetailed amount of time or effort had been made. The students would be “guided” by a teacher as to when it would be OK to forgive and re-establish a relationship. As a mother I can imagine how painful it would be to get such a letter…as a son or daugther how painful it would be to write. It didn't feel as though forgiveness, healing and love was being taught. It almost felt that the purpose was to drive a wedge between the son/daughter and the family. I felt very sad after that class…and I'm not even in that situation (I have a good relationship with my family). I also attended a class taught by Father Peter in which he specifically said “the family is an archaic institution that should have been abolished years ago”. I'll never forget that statement…perhaps I am judging him on that…and of what I know of his background…and I should not…but I also think it's important to state what I see as unskillfulness. My own spiritual path has led me to Buddhist teachings (Thich Nhat Hahn, Dalai Lama, etc) and in realizing the value of family, of forgiveness, and of following a path of love and compassion. OCS may have interesting teachings and I'm sure the students learn many things….from my experience with them it is not love and compassion.
I very much appreciate your perspective though and
admittedly, I do not know the teachings of Jesus
that well (even though I was raised a Lutheran). I thought he was also about love, compassion and forgiveness. I hope to hear more from you. thank you. peace and love.

I don't think anyone can deny that Jesus' words, recorded in Mark 10, have come to fruition. Look at all the wars and suffering that have come about because of religion. In reflecting on this passage, I wonder what Jesus looked like when he spoke these words. I often imagine he looked rather sad. I know I feel deeply sad when I think about the divisions, separations, violences and deaths committed in the name of religion.
I've always believed that such divisions are less part of God's agenda than they are a sad consequence of our weaknesses as humans. Put another way, I believe God mourns these divisions. Anger, resentment, pride, defensiveness … these are things I associate with such divisions, but they are not things I associate with God.
Now here's the Order of Christ Sophia, engaging in practices that actively encourage parental estrangement, divorces, etc. They spend a lot of energy doing this in the name of healing the individual students. They also spend a lot of time on this board and elsewhere rationalizing this — even pointing to select Bible verses to say “You see? This is what Jesus wants!”
Why not spend some of this energy on healing and strengthening relationships? What kind of religious leader … or even therapist … would spend so much energy breaking up families instead of helping to bring them together?
I guess everyone can choose what they want out of religion. But I think the Order's practices are unethical. And I think they seriously misinterpret what God wants us to accomplish here on Earth.

To Mindful,
I see your openness in wanting to understand Jesus' teachings, so I want to share this passage with you, and others who so desire to read it.

It is right after John and James Zebedee meet Jesus after He came back from fasting in the desert for 40 days.
John asks to follow Him, and Jesus responds:
“Come. But do you know what you are asking for? Who follows Me will have to leave everything: his home, his relatives, his way of thinking, also his life. I will make you My disciples and My friends, if you wish so. But I have neither wealth nor protection. I am poor, and I shall be even poorer, to the extent of not having a place where I may rest My head and I will be persecuted by My enemies, even more than a lost sheep is pursued by wolves. My doctrin is even more rigid than Johns' (the Baptist), because it forbids also resentment. And My doctrin is concerned not so much wiht external matters, as it is with the soul. You must be re-born if you want to be My disciples. Are you willing to do that?”

I see that the family members of the students of the OCS have mostly responded on this chat line with resentment and anger at what the student has chosen in life.
While the students of the OCS have explained their decisions.
As Jesus said, it is the matters of the soul that count. On a soul level, what does a biological connection to a parent really mean?
I see you study the Eastern traditions, so I take it you have been introduced to reincarnation, and may even believe in it. So a mother in this life could have been a students' child last life. So why the need for such loyalty to a temporary relationship.
A soul is a living being one unto God, it does not need another to make it whole or feel loved. However, if it has been hurt, wounded, abadoned or unloved, as a child, it needs another to care for it and love it. Be that a parent, a spouse or children. What happened to God? Did not Jesus say that the number one commandment was to Love the Lord your God with all you heart, all your mind and all your soul?

I encourage you all to take a deep look within yourselves, and see what you find. Ask your inner being or highest knowing, if a child of God should remain loyal to a parent or find God in his or her life.
I would love to hear what you receive from within.

Peace and Love to you all.

To “A Follower of our Master” (Rev. DeMarco)—

Thank you for sharing your thoughts.

You describe what's being posted on this board as some sort of dialogue between people critical of Order member's choices and Order member's explanations of their choices. I don't think that's accurate. I am not posting here to express anything about what my loved one has said to me or what my loved one has chosen in life. I am posting here to criticize your Order's practices, and your Order's role in breaking up families. To that end…

You talk of reincarnation and of family relationships as “temporary” and “undeserving of loyalty.” I believe that we are brought into our families in accordance with Divine will. My understandig is that the Order teaches something very similar. If this is correct then, temporary or not, your family is a gift from God. I don't know about loyalty, but I do know such a gift from God is entitled to respect.

I believe that to cut your family out of your life, to divorce your wife, to attack people you don't even know, just for disagreeing with you - I don't believe that's practicing true love. I don't believe that's serving God.

I don't understand why the Order spends so much energy directing its students to tell their family members, “You hurt me” and “Respect me and respect the divine in me, or we can't have a relationship.” Why doesn't the Order help its students learn to tell family members, “I love you” and “I respect the divine in you, and I will not let our differences get in the way of our relationship.”

You talk about finding God in your life and being “loyal” to your parents as an either/or proposition. Why do you see these things as exclusive of each other? As for me, I believe God has worked and continues to work in my life through my relationship with my parents. What they have given me is so much greater than the sum of all the hurts they have caused me. My love of God doesn't restrict me from loving and respecting my parents. To the contrary, I can't imagine loving God without also gratefully loving the parents He blessed me with (and, yes, the challenges that they have brought to my life).

I hope you and everyone reading this board finds what they're looking for. Peace.

For Follower….
If my dear friend (and member of OCS) had looked within and felt he needed to remove himself from society and our relationship in order to pursue his path, I would have supported him. The difficulty I had was this: when he moved into the Order house he thought we would be able to continue our friendship….he didn’t know the vows he would have to take until 2 days after he'd already made the commitment and was living in the house. He had told me that we would be able to continue our friendship…that the Order didn't control him, and yet he had to seek quidance before we could get together….he was sad when he told me they didn't think it'd be a good idea. He wasn't looking “within” as far as I could tell. His only decision was to turn his will and his life over to the Order. Even the Buddha said that no one should follow him….they must find their own path. From my experience with OCS I don't see this happening. I do feel the intentions are good but I disagree with the practice. It’s not that I am trying to get my friend back or that I remain “attached” to him. I am learning how to care (continue to love), and not care (not attach to the outcome). I feel that good has come from it for me, as good often comes from difficulties.

Regarding loyalty to family, I have learned and believe that we are all interconnected and that we are here for the benefit of all beings. Our relationships are naturally temporary because everything is impermanent. But impermanence isn’t a reason to not care about the people in our lives because they won’t be around in our next life (or perhaps even tomorrow)…on the contrary..it gives us a reason to hold them even more dear to us and to be mindful of every moment and how precious it is. I try to follow the 5 mindfulness trainings written by Thich Nhat Hahn…here is a quote from the 4th:
“I will refrain from uttering words that can cause division or discord, or that can cause the family or the community to break. I am determined to make all efforts to reconcile and resolve all conflicts, however small. “ Here’s a quote about parents and ancestors: “If you look deeply into the palm of your hand, you will see your parents and all generations of your ancestors. All of them are alive in this moment. Each is present in your body. You are the continuation of each of these people.”
peace and love

Dear Rev Jan,
I read your letter with great interest but could only question the amount of time you truly spent within the OCS. Taking a few classes and attending some of their workshops does NOT make you one of their students who WOULD feel the full effect of what they do. It is as one other former memeber stated “it is like throwing a frog in cold water and gradually turning up the heat, you don't realize you are in boiling water because it was so gradual”. They start out gently with new students by loving them as all people essentially want to be loved, unconditionally. Once you start deacon training, the heat gets turned up, to see how serious you are. Once you are a deacon, it gets much worse with levels of emotional abuse that will rival anything one could receive out in the material world with one big difference, theirs is “done with love”.

After that, Clare and Peter don't want you if you don't fit their vision of what THEY WANT their priests to be, ones who will do ANYTHING Peter and Clare say because as another member of the OCS once told me “You do not question a Master Teacher” especially ones who are “the closest beings like Jesus and Mary on this earth”. If or when you leave, they make parting comments that cut you to the heart leaving doubt and fear that you have forsaken God and you will “never have another teacher again because you have not listened to the teacher given to you” and that you will return to the pitiful state you were in when you started coming to the Order. Loving thoughts from loving teachers? I think not.

I have read many members defense of OCS saying that Peter and Clare do not use mind control. Unfortnatley people think this is the same as brainwashing, it is not. I can tell everyone from personal experience and seeing it first hand in other students that mind control is being used there. I didn't want to believe it at first but know it to be true. I can only thank God that I left before my family was irreparably ruined.

I am very sad to see and hear of the students I knew in the OCS now in the process of divorce because of conflict brought on by the OCS. Rev Jan they acknowledge the sanctity of marriage until it conflicts with the “guidance” they have for one of their students and THEIR vision of what they want the Order to be. When the spouse becomse problematic and the student is at their wits end, they get “guidance” for divorce, how convenient. They are willing to dissolve this sacrement of marriage while at the same time disavowing any personal responsibilty saying it is not God or Peter or Clare that is responsible, it is the students own attachments they must overcome if they want to serve God and progress in the Order. The student is told they need to overcome all their “attachements” including to children, parents, spouses or anything they find pleasureable in their life, such as ones gifts of musical, artistic or dancing abilites. Unless, of course, if this is some ability they can use somehow in the OCS. Meanwhile Peter and Clare are able to pursue their own intersts such as recording songs or writing books because this is “guided” by God to support and further thier vision and growth of the Order.

You quote the scriptures saying Jesus was here to tear families apart. I cannot and do not accept that relationships that God has given to us and having a spiritual path/life are mutually exclusive. In a very good book “After the Ecstacy, The Laundry” it is said that our families are a gift to help us identity the areas in us that need to be healed or worked on. It is our families that trigger these issues. Of course unless you want to move into an Order House or spend 95% of your time living at the Order, which is what happens once your become a deacon or priest. You have no time left for anything or anyone else. Not surprising many marriages fail unless the spouse is also a hooked member of the Order, huh?

I know for a fact there are spiritual paths outside of the OCS that lead one to union with the Self without requiring you sacrifice your family or spouse for them. Not that OCS would agree. I know for a fact there are master teachers that do not resort to the methods that Peter and Clare use. I am sad that you support this group without really KNOWING them, as you claim. I have tried to remain open and unbiased on previous postings but your posting, one by person with your credentials, made me realize that I could no longer do this. I have not made a point of going out and persecuting them and will not even after this letter but I could no longer sit by and not speak my truth. As I said on a previous posting I would NOT want my children or any of my loved ones a part of this group. If the ones still in this group think they are happy and where God wants them to be, good for them but I feel sympathy for the family and loved ones they have left behind to follow Peter and Clare.

Been There, Done That

Been there done that,
Now there is an interesting change of tone compared to your other postings.

For Been There….
I applaud your efforts to be mindful….and
your decision to be completely honest and open.
peace and love

I watched a rerun of the Simpsons last night, an episode called “The Joy of Sect” in which Homer joins a religious cult. I think Homer may have been coached by Mother Clare! When Homer's family expresses concern over his decision to join the group, he responds:

“Marge, when I join an underground cult I expect a little support from my family!”

The cult lures in potential members with its promise of “a perfect life of serenity and love, and loving serenity!(“Loving serenity. It's about damn time!” — Moe) And although they repeatedly tell their “guests” that they are free to leave at any time, they use psychological pressure to get them to stay.

I'd say the Simpsons seem to have a pretty good grasp of the practices of groups like the OCS. Unfortunately, in the show, breaking people free of the cult is as simple as giving them a taste of beer.

Cult Member: (after informing Homer that beer is not allowed in the cult) Would you rather have beer, or complete and utter contentment?
Homer: What kind of beer?

We on the outside may be hurting, but we still have to laugh. Peace.

I chanced upon this website just now and began to read the lengthy threads… on the one hand, there seems to be a tremendous level of inner peace and patience that emanates from the bloggers intimately involved in this order. Such commited spiritual exploration and openness coming from those who are actively and deeply immersed in this religious community impresses me very much, and as my search for renewal has been deepening, I find it is that peace and commitedness that is the clearest indicator of spiritual energy and grace.

On the other hand, there is a very high degree of anger and vitriol and accusation coming from a few people who clearly have their axes to grind. The specific information about people in this group and their relationships seems especially spiteful and hurtful.

To offer some perspective from a new reader, I don't think your anger issues and/or obvious intent to tear down this group is serving your desired purpose. By contrast, the replies from the members or fellow travelers seem much more reasonable and inviting than your rage.

Attacking others for their spiritual journey is a very regressed kind of behavior. Read Walt Whitman's preface to Leaves of Grass, “Argue not concerning God.” When I lived in the deep South, a Baptist friend of mine used to quote an old revival song, “You go to your church and I'll go to mine…” Numerous 12-step programs also encourage an ethic of acceptance—beginning with self aceptance. Live and Let Live, y'know?

Having been raised Catholic, I have known people who entered the convent or priesthood or the monastary. They made a major break from family and friends in order to “put God before all things.” They also took vows of obedience and (the Benedictines) of stability and were willing to stay in the same cloister or go where the abbot sent them… I see much of that Thomas Merton style seeking here.

I also keep looking for the differences here, and, other than the fact that your group seems incredibly patient, loving and attuned to a deep need for inner healing that many humans have, I see no difference…

Oh, except that the gifts of women in spiritual leadership are clearly encouraged by this community. Please allow me to commend you for that.

I don't know that I would have even given this such a lengthy consideration until I saw such serenity in the face of these attacks. The rage-filled lack of serenity coming from some of you, while thoroughly unappealing. It makes the patient responses of this group positively shine by contrast. Makes me think of the young student in China courageously staring down those tanks in Tienamen Square. Your blend of courage and love in the face of anger is inspiring and refreshing.

Peace,

Serendipity

P.S. Do you have a website?

The order's website can be googled very easily by anyone who wants it, “serendipity.” How odd that you seem to need to ask someone for it.

If you want to check out the order, by all means you should do so. But I hope that, like the majority of folks who check them out, you will be unimpressed. Or if you do get involved, like the majority of folks (including their deacons and ministers) you will leave within a few years. Hopefully in that time you will do less damage than my loved one has done in her several years with the group.

By the way, I am angry. I don't like being hurt, and I don't like seeing people I love hurt. The order of christ sophia attacked me and my family without compassion. So yeah, I'm angry about that.

I will continue to share my story, on this little webpage that seems to have caused such a stir, and in my community. People who really see the fruits of the order's work understand my anger. If anyone from the order showed even a fraction of the compassion these people have shown me, I would probably feel differently about the group. But that's not what I experienced. point is, my sharing my story does seem to have made a difference with most people. So I'll continue to do it, and let people like you make up their own minds.

Dear Sam,
Yes, I have to admit that Rev. Jan triggered a few of my issues. I never said I was over the pain of leaving the Order, I am still processing and working on this, obviously. I had to look and see what angers she triggered and here are a few things I noted:

As an occasional visitor, Rev. Jan never entered the student/teacher relationship that is required of a student in which the student entrusts the Deacon or Priest with their deepest secrets, fears thoughts, etc. They even want to know your dreams and what you experience in meditations so they can see the process your subconscious is going through. This is then used to “guide” the student through the “healing process” and closer to the Self within. At first many students progress rapidly, even making it to Deacon and Priest. But there comes a point where the students are expected to “do something” which is never made clear but the student is told they are “not acting like a Deacon or Priest”. They never tell you clearly what it is but insinuate you know and are deliberately resisting. Some students try harder, immersing themselves deeper, putting up with more abuse, because “the teacher is doing it for their own good”. Sick. Those of us who realize that we don't know what they are talking about and are tired of the pain, leave. I guess it isn't so surpising after Peter was reviewed numerous times for unethical behaviour. The behaviour continues but now there is no one he has to answer to about it.

If rev Jan really thought that highly of them and what they had to offer, why did their paths “merge and split” a couple of times over the years? Sounds like she wasn't ready for what they had to offer though she freely sent her friends there. What a friend.

I have personally felt their abuse. Knowing my history of being abused, they used verbal and emotional abuse to reprimand and teach, the difference was they said “they do it with love”. At first it was insidious, but it grew with public humiliations and shaming in front of groups of other Deacons. Finally it became so flagrant I recognized it for what it was and could no longer ignore it no matter what it was called. This whole process is a flagrant violation of the trust given them. Gee, where was all that peace and centerdness Serendipity was talking about? Not with the student being verbally flogged I can assure you. The student then has 5 minutes to process and “let go”. Serenditpity, YOU ARE WELCOME TO THEM!!!!

I realized I didn't really delve into the anger I harbored for them and didn't want them to label me as “negative” possibly thinking one day I would want to return to them. As I have continued to heal I have no desire to return.

I tried to be objective of them thinking they were vehicle to find God and obviously there are OCS members that must like the abuse as well as the “feel good” part or they wouldn't still be there. Now, well, we'll see as I continue to work on the anger they have left me with.

For Serendipity,
If I came across with anger I apologize deeply…it was my intent to state the truth as I see it regarding my experiences with OCS. I do feel compelled to inform those unfamiliar so they won't be hurt the way I have seen others hurt by OCS. I'm sure others who write against OCS feel the same. I have said that I don't believe this hurt has been caused intentionally; I feel that Peter and Clare (and definitely the deacons and priests I've met) have a desire to help. But having a desire and actually helping is not always the same. I would not say that I am angry but I am very very sad…for the members and for their loved ones. Please don't let your disdain for those who write here who have been deeply hurt prevent you from seeing and seeking the truth. Peace and love.

Serendipity,

“Anger?” “Vitriol” “Spiteful and hateful?” “Rage filled lack of serenity?” Are we reading the same postings?

I guess I would admit being angry, though not “rage filled,” and I would admit that the order of christ sophia has challenged my serenity. But I don't exactly see a whole lot of loving serenity emanating from the posts of the order members and order supporters like you.

Whatever. All I know is that the order seems to spend a lot more time worrying about critics like me than I spend worrying about them.

Anyway, Serendipity, the order's website is www.orderofchristsophia.org. You might also want to check out the articles and testimonials compiled at www.freedomofmind.com for a different perspective.

Me and my rage filled lack of serenity are going to have a glass of wine and read a book before bed. May you find peace.

How should we expect a healthy spiritual community to affect the greater community around them? Should we expect them to be a source of spreading peace and joy? Or should we expect the “trail of destruction” effect we seem to be seeing from the OCS? (I vote for spreading peace and joy).
And what does it mean that so many leave the OCS after just a few years, and are left feeling angry and even abused? Even Peggy Lane (Rev. Catherine, one of the Order's original students, the head priest in Milwaukee and an Officer of the Order) has left the group!
There are many many red flags of unhealthy spiritual practices with this group. Here's a good tip — be wary of any church that asks you to sign a waiver before enrolling!

A Buddhist and a friend of ex members

TO serendipity:
Your language model is suspicious either there has been a persuaded influence over you, or you are working under some alias. ‘Interesting.

Peace serenity? Really? Have you ever considered reading about the internal and social psychological foibles of a cult like society?

Have you ever considered investigating a little more before plummeting into what could be an unhealthy choice? Plus! It seems to be that there are many ex members of the OCS with many more heartbroken family members, recently discovering this I thought the preface of the OCS to be a classic myth identification with the real thing.

Here are some basic reasons No. 1 statistics play a big role in the ratio of membership par ex members. Fifteen percent out of 450 members could be considered reasonable but high. However this group seems to be losing fifteen percent out of less than 200. That is not a good ratio and indicated of serious internal problems. Regardless of percentages there are many other dissatisfactions and harmful outcomes. The second alarm is that the OCS has its metaphysical Eastern like/Christian ideology secondhand and self appointed. In other words the teachings are borrowed. Authenticity comes to question when one has not studied the fullness of another philosophy such as Eastern religion yet Barrows such teachings as Initiation/spiritual attainment and failed to bring into being positive lasting results even in ex members.

Something un- Enlightening is going on in the OCS. Later we will discuss self-realization and what it is not.

Pama

Serendipity wrote: “Read Walt Whitman’s preface to Leaves of Grass, “Argue not concerning God.”“

It's not God that I would be arguing if I argued about OCS. I likely wouldn't be arguing at all. I would just be sad for the loss of a good, good friend of mine who has fallen off the face of the planet because, in her searching, she fell into the clutches of an egomaniacal cult leader and lost herself.

I pray she finds her wonderful self again.

I don't know squat about OCS's philosophy. Having seen it in action over several years, I sense it's malleable and expedient.

What I do know is that Peter Bowles is a twisted dude who manipulates vulnerable folks in need. And that's bad, bad mojo.

Bad mojo indeed!

In an early post Rev. Lucille (Mother Clare's daughter) tried to “put things in perspective” by explaining how small the OCS is and casting doubt on whether there could really be that many people with negative experiences to share about it. Well, given the number of negative experiences shared on this site, and given the small size of this group (because — let's face it — with less than 100 members nationwide and with a turnover rate of over 50%, this is pretty weak little group), I think the amount of negative witnessing against the OCS is very significant.
I would say this to anyone considering getting involved in this group — look around. See who's still there in six months. Notice the lack of married people. Notice how the longer term members seem to have few social contacts outside the group. Notice the pressure put upon members to increase their involvement and donations. And, if you can, talk to the people who left the group and ask them why, and how they feel. Make an informed decision. The OCS does not want you to ask these questions. They will try to cover up these facts or explain them away. I've heard ministers explain away former members' accusations of spiritual abuse by saying, Well, they're mentally ill. Really? And if it were true, is that appropriate for a minister (especially one trained as a therapist) to share with others?

Dear Cut Out,
You make a very valid point. I am appaled at the lack of respect and privacy that is given to the students in regards to private issues and affairs. As a psychotherapist and psychologist, (I believe Peter and Clare have take credit for being these} but more importantly as Priests and Master Teachers, they use the confidences of the students against them and spread the information broadly among the group of the “inner circle”. What is even more sad is that they are training another generation of Priests and Deacons to perpetuate this same lack of respect.

They want the new students to think they are in direct connection to God, they see and know all that is going on with them. Funny thing though, when something hits the fan, like when Tim DeMarcos mother went to the news, they didn't have a clue for days who was responsible. For someone this close to God, this should have been child's play.

Yeah, Peter and Clare get a little obsessed over knowing everything that's going on with their students, and they get really anxious when they don't know something. Not only are students told to share everything with the priests, they're really berated when they don't share. What's more, students are told not to discuss their spiritual activities with their spouse, families, friends, etc. Since the OCS defines spiritual activities to include feelings, personal issues, church activities, etc., this results in the students becoming very secretive with the outside world.
When people like you and I share our experiences, the OCS sees us as having betrayed them. Just for sharing our honest experiences! These fears (and the control mechanisms that rise from them) only demonstrate what a weak group this really is. I just don't understand why anyone would want to continue feeling so afraid and angry.

I guess it comes down to control. They tell the students they have given their power to their spouse, parent, whomever they have emotional attachments to and encourage them to take it back, usually alienating that person in the process. This attachment then gets transferred to them as the student goes to them for guidance on all kinds of issues from child rearing, should they go on a diet, can they buy a new car or even miss a night of prayers to be with their children. They say they will teach the student how to “access” guidance and transfer the power but do they really? The need to know what is going on with the students is definitely a control issue, they want to maintain it at all times.

I am friend of spouse, who in earlier writings explained how OCS has made such problems for himself and for his now 4 children. My heart goes out to my friend, spouse, who is in the middle of a divorce with “Sophia”, her “new name”. She is a great and wonderful woman with whom I have known for many years. Obviously, we have become somewhat estranged due to the order. Sophia changed…personality became bitter and controlling, relationships severed, family destroyed, thought processes changed, enjoyments lost, her passions lost, her name along with her identity replaced and removed. Ask her how she hurt others? She cannot reply. She is not allowed. Her time and energies thwarted and ripped away from her. Sophia may even be punished for this writing. I would hope not.

Friend of a Friend and of Sophia

Do you know that Peter and Clare actually use criticism of the group to further their control? They create a strong identity bond between the students and the group, and when loved ones speak out against the group, Clare and Peter can say, “See how they disrespect you?” and “This is what the Bible talks about.” They actually convince many students that the efforts by loved ones to turn them away from the Order is proof that the Order is the “correct path,” since only being on the correct path would inspire such “fear and anger.”
They're wrong, of course. The fear we on the outside feel is fear for our loved ones who we believe to be in real danger. The anger is a natural reaction to the threat of the Order and of our loved ones' participation.
So what's really the Truth? Should the correct path be the one that motivates family members to worry, suffer and warn you to stay away? Or should the correct path be the path that increases happiness and peace in our relationships? Does the correct path lead to division or reconciliation? Remember, we're not talking about escaping abusive relationships. We're talking about imperfect but generally healthy relationships that are discarded when the relationship conflicts with the student's commitment to the Order.
Man … what kind of twisted take on reality would consider family schisms, broken friendships and divorces to be signs that the spiritual path is going well???

How ironic that I stumbled across your site on Christmas Eve. This is the fifth Christmas our family will spend without my nephew, an OCS member. My relationship with him was severed by him when I posed questions about the orders' practices and wondered how as a Christian he could cease contact completely with his parents and three brothers (and now their wives/children). For those of you who have stated that the orders members are open to settling their differences with their family, this has not been our experience. Two of his brothers' weddings and the birth of a child have taken place within this family with no acknowledgement whatever from the OCS member. All communication was severed years ago.
On one Mothers Day I e-mailed my nephew that even as Jesus was dying on the cross he exemplified his love by asking his friend, John, to look after his mother. His mother never heard anything. As any mother might imagine, her pain, all or our pain, is excruciating.