Parents Say Group Turns Family Members Into Strangers and changes name to Center of Light.

I've personally known 2 people involved with the Order of Christ Sophia. One was in for a number of years, but, fortunately, woke up 3 years ago and got out. Durng her first 2 years after the experience she suffered severe depression. She is just now getting over it and getting her own life back. The other, is still in and is becoming more and more distant to me and to other friends. I've never experienced anything quite as devastating...to the person involved, the family and the friends. "Father" Peter Bowes is an extremely unhealthy person with a narcissitic christ complex. It's definitely all about mind-control; not love or spiritual growth.

Posted by: dancer | July 13, 2004 3:06 PM

Hi- Problems among family members are not new. Blaming those problems on others is also not new. I've been a member of the Order of Christ/Sophia for over a year now, and I have found it a remarkably meaningful alternative to living a life that is dictated by society's primary value of pleasing everyone else. We are at a time on this planet where it is critical that we elevate our individual consciousness to a level where our own Creator can more easily use us for expanding the love and light on this very troubled planet. We CAN make a difference. If a deeper inner path is subject to harsh criticism, because those not choosing that path don't understand it, what's the point of each of us being given the divine gift of free will? The Order of Christ/Sophia has centers in Denver, New Haven, Milwaukee, Dallas, Oakland, Seattle, Boston, Kansas City and Atlanta. Check them out. See for yourself. Propaganda and rumors only work if people don't consult their own experience. Genevieve

Posted by: Genevieve Towne | July 16, 2004 2:31 PM

Being in the Order for one year does not give the insight one needs to see how the effect of being with teachers who are controlling.... I was there I know. The troublesome issue is the one of true spiritual growth that is the only issue and it gets mixed up in the egos of teachers who have there own problems. I advise anyone exploring spirtual growth to learn as much as they can before joining any group....i.e. what is a master teacher, what one should expect, what is healthy and what is not.... Mr. Bowes group is not healthy and very dangerous.

Posted by: ann | July 20, 2004 7:17 PM

My experience as the spouse of a student of the Order of Christ/Sophia has really turned me off this group. I do think it's misguided and dangerous. However, I don't think they're into mind control, and I don't think they're evil. I do see them putting strong psychological pressure on the students and manipulating them. I also don't see much compassion within the OCS for those outside the Order -- especially parents. Many marriages and other family relationships have been destroyed under the strain of the OCS' "path." While I don't think we should have to live our lives so as to please everyone, I do think we should think of more than just ourselves. Those outside us ... especially those with whom we struggle in relationships ... should be given our love generously. I don't see the OCS teaching this. I think the approach they take is arrogant, patronizing, defensive, secretive, and self-serving. I don't think I'm in much of a position to judge whether or not the OCS bring people closer to God. But I certainly see the OCS distancing people from other people. I think everyone ought to have a close and personal relationship with a higher power, and that there are many different structures in which one can pursue such a relationship. But if you're looking for a way to be more easy-going, generous, humble, accepting of others, and forgiving ... well, you probably want to look elsewhere.

Posted by: spouse of student | July 21, 2004 10:39 AM

As a member of the OCS, one of the things I find most outrageous regarding those outside the Order who speak and lobby against it is that those people purport to know more about what is happening in the Order and what is best for those in the Order than the Order members themselves do. Very often the approach to Order members is a patronizing, power-wielding attempt to control the member - usually in very subtle, under-handed ways. Those who are at all literate in modern-day psychology are surely familiar with the phenomenon of "Projection." This is what I see happening. Family members find they don't have the same power and control over their "loved" ones that they used to be able to; they freak out and assume that someone else has taken over their role. They see the Order as wielding power and control over the members...because really....how ELSE do you earn someone's "Love" and devotion? Surely you have to manipulate to get it. I am here to say "No." You don't. There is no way I would be within a hundred-mile radius of the Order if I felt for a second like I was being manipulated or controlled. Really....subtle manipulations and control, and "stickiness," are standard fare in most relationships. For years I distained of family and other relationships where I felt that happening, knowing it felt so wrong, and knowing deep within me that there HAD to be purer relationships than this, and that I wanted to be in relationship with people that truly respected me, and truly gave me the freedom I desired to be who I truly was. I looked and looked. There was always some "stickiness," or neediness, or lack of balance, or inability to communicate, etc. Nothing was ever the True Love I was looking for. And the Order is finally where I found that. True Love is scary for most people, because, although we're all looking for it, most of us can't really trust that it's actually possible. We all want relationships that don't have caveats, people that know us through and through and still accept us, Love that wants only to know us deeper and deeper and has no designs about what it needs to be like ultimately or who we need to be to "earn" it. This is the kind of Love the Teachers of OCS give. One other thing: in this Love, the Teachers do not hesitate to speak Truth to all their Students or those with whom they come into contact in the world. This is a primary reason most who have left the Order in a huff and are now bitter about their experiences there could not stand being a part of it anymore. Most people don't want to hear Truth - especially about themselves. Striking similarity: the Pharisees who were so indignant and hated Jesus Christ to the point of plotting his violent death. Jesus spoke the Truth to them about their misguided ways. They refused to hear it. And in their pride about who they were, they wouldn't even listen to his words. Had they listened, they would have become his Students; and they would have come to truly know God.

Posted by: Mary | July 28, 2004 12:48 PM

My experience as a student in the Order of Christ /Sophia has been an entirely positive one. Has my life changed? Yes, completely! Why ? Because it was my heart's desire. How? Through learning that God is inside of each one of us and our way to happiness lies within. So much of the world is focused on looking outside for satisfaction.That experience is well, dissatisfying because the love we have is the love we can give. It starts with loving and forgiving yourself. When we let go and let God then this love moves out to others.What does" let go and let God" mean? It means to let go of limitations, fears and doubts. To risk it all and ask the question " God , What do you think should happen? How would you do this? God, please help, and show the direction to go in!" In the quiet stillness of faith God answers us. EVERY TIME! I have grown personally and spiritually in my time with the Order in ways that have enriched and strengthened my life. In God we live and move and have our being.Peace to all. P.S. Do check out a workshop if the Order of Christ /Sophia is in your city! They are a treat. See for yourself and make up your own mind. Sarai Fairchild

Posted by: Sarai Fairchild | July 28, 2004 2:00 PM

I have been a member of the OCS for about a year and a half and my wife has been involved for 3 years. I've come to form close relationships with the other students in this Order including the very few that have parents who actively seek to bring harm to the OCS. It's easy to get these parent's view of their situation because they broadcast it through the internet and television. But what I get to see and hear that people outside this Order don't, is the side of the student's themselves. All I can tell you is that you aren't going to get a balanced view of what goes on in the OCS by only listening to people like Nancy Wainer. You won't get the truth about this Order by watching newscasts that are more interested in ratings and sensationalism then Truth or by visiting websites of so called "cult busters" who are only motivated by money. There are over 130 students in this Order and out of that 130, I can count the number of students with parents like Nancy on my fingers. The group that has formed against us represents a very small portion of the family members of OCS students. They are most certainly loud but they are small. Everyday I see the growth of the students here as they work through there issues and come into relationship with God. I came to this Order with a huge load of old unprocessed emotions over things that I had experienced in my life and my marriage had been going down the tubes for several years. Now, my wife and I are working on our relationship and growing closer as a result of the counseling that we've been given and I've worked through a lot of that baggage that I brought with me to the OCS through the love of my teachers. It's probably not going to make the evening news or stir up a lot of controversy but that's my experience as a student of the Order of Christ Sophia.

Posted by: Matthias | July 28, 2004 2:05 PM

I am currently a member of the Order of Christ/Sophia in Boston. This spiritual community has provided me with nothing but love and support in my journey to Christ. The teachings of this Order are from the wisdom schools of all ages and all belief systems. After studying psychology, religion, philosophy and 'new age' approaches to life, I have found the Order of Christ/Sophia, it's Teachers and Priests to offer the way to peace which my heart and soul have yearned for all of my life. As for the allegations from the parents shown...it is unfortunate that they would choose this approach over sincere communication with their adult children and acceptance of their choice of worship. I have open relationships with my parents, family, friends and co-workers outside of the Order of Christ/Sophia...and, my life has been blessed with new friends in a loving spiritual community. I wish peace to all...and I wish that the media would do a better job at representing both sides thoroughly with an eye toward reconciliation rather than sensationalism. Be well, Rebekah Order of Christ/Sophia-Boston

Posted by: Rebekah | July 29, 2004 8:22 AM

I cannot comment on anyone else's experience but my own, of course. People divorce for all sorts of reasons. People fight with families for all sorts of reasons. But doesn't it seem unusual for a church to engage in practices that encourage such strain and conflict? Here are some facts. In the last year my wife has paid about $10,000 to the Order. She is at the Order for at least an hour every day. She is gone every second or third Saturday for a full day. She is gone at least three evenings every week. My experience has been that my wife has treated me very differently since she joined the Order. My perception is that she has been more secretive, sullen, defensive and argumentative. Our marriage has almost ended three times since she joined the Order. I have changed jobs to be able to spend more time at home, giving up about $30,000 in income. My wife is no longer talking to her parents -- not even to call them on Mother's Day or Father's Day. Not even to call her dad when he had a heart procedure. My kids have expressed worry about our marriage, worry about their mother and disdain for "Mommy's Church" that they see as having changed everything. The Order has affected our sex life. It has changed my wife's attitude toward parenting. It has changed her attitude toward employment. She would tell you the changes have all been good. I would tell you they've been very painful. Our family would say the same. So would many of our friends. To those of you seeking enlightenment or a higher spirituality, I assure you there are places where you can seek God where the leaders and community are supportive of families, compassionate toward others, unafraid of outside criticism, less focused on marketing and less focused on themselves. The practices of the Order of Christ Sophia hurt people. What is practiced there is a poor substitute for real love. Real love is unconditional. Real love is giving. Real love is gentle and understanding. Real love is inclusive and open. You are free to choose your path. Listen to opinions on both sides, of course. But don't automatically discount the voice of those who have had negative experiences. There are more of us than the Order likes to think about.

Posted by: spouse of student | July 29, 2004 10:25 AM

The Order of Christ Sophia is dangerous. It requires the complete obedience of its members and they in turn become increasingly dependant on it. When my single parent started attending classes and meetings, it was once or twice a week, but it quickly became several times a day. When asked why it was so important that my parent rush off at 6:30 AM for morning prayer, the reply was "I need it...it FEEDS me." I felt completely abandoned by my parent who left me and my siblings at home to fend for ourselves. A parent's children are supposedly the number one thing in their lives, but not when the order is concerned...that is put above ALL other relationships by the members. I had to grow up and assume the role of a parent at age 12. Things started to get more and more bizarre. My parent started to receive guidance from god. Now, when they received guidance, it could sometimes be false guidance (how convenient). When "Father" Peter Bowes receives guidance, it can never be false...it is the word of god. My parent received guidance that they shouldn't dye their hair anymore...gray looks wiser. I truly thought my parent had gone crazy. I always half expected to wake up in the middle of the night with my parent standing over me with a knife saying that they got guidance to kill me. My parent received guidance through Mr. Bowes to quit their well paying job leaving us in a financial lurch. We borrowed money from anyone my parent hadn't already severed contact with. On one occasion I attended a conference where members of the order from two different cities came together. I went because they needed someone to look after the very young children during their hours and hours of prayer and meetings. This was before I knew what it was all about and what they were doing, but I just couldn’t shake the creepy feeling that came over me. Something was not right. It was some time after this that I informed my parent that they were in a cult. They reported that I said this to Mr. Bowes who “didn’t appreciate that.” He said that that was no joking matter and it wasn’t funny. The thing is, I was serious. I feel like I hit very close to home with that comment for the both of them. Mr. Bowes denies allegations that he is running a cult, but I think he knows exactly what he is doing. To this day I have trouble trusting my parent and have bitter feelings towards this whole experience. The order ruins relationships and lives. There are countless reports of the order cutting people off from their past and their families. I have heard reports of at least one former member committing suicide. My parent is out of the order now, but is still having problems coping with the trauma the order created. If anyone is thinking of joining the order, please reconsider. If you are already in, please get out now while you can still salvage relationships that are dear to you.

Posted by: child of former member | July 29, 2004 12:16 PM

I would like to share one more element of my experience: I grew up in the Catholic church, attending Catholic grade school and a Catholic university, teen retreats in high school, counseling at a Catholic youth camp during my college years. Throughout all that time my love for Jesus and for God was strong, and my desire to grow ever closer drove me to keep searching for new opportunities. Most of what I experienced in all the spiritual communities of which I was a part was very saccharine sweet. There seemed to be a standard for people who were spiritual and love Jesus--that they were "nice," committed to their families, loyal to their friends above all, etc. Looking back, I can see how truly ill at ease and not at peace I was during those years. I would have explained it away and told you I was fine at the time. But I wasn't. Because those external expectations were crushing me inside. I was compromising who I was, what I really felt, wanted, thought. Being a Student at the Order has taught me otherwise. I am learning how to truly come to know myself, and be true to myself - even if that means disturbing a mirage of external "peace." I have learned that my Jesus did not care a hoot about being "nice." He did not care what others thought of him. His one and abiding loyalty was to God; and he spoke God's Truth above all else. In this, his life was a living representation of the First Commandment--loving the Lord his God with all his heart, mind, and strength, and having no Gods before God. I am now seeing how "keeping the peace" is just one of many alternative Gods. It is sometimes hard for me to be a member of OCS, when the very people who were or would have been spiritual companions before look at me with suspicion and wariness, assuming I am some aberration. Like choosing to put God before anything else in my life is so wierd.... When all I'm doing is what a devoted Catholic would do: joining an Order by which I give my life to God. Only I'm not living in a monastery. And I'm not as concerned with being "nice." I'm concerned with truly Loving people, even if I have to say things that they don't want to hear or that might make them unhappy. I'm committed to living how Jesus truly lived. I still love my family and friends - but in a more real and true way. And I'm learning to Love myself - something I could not grasp while I was alienated from my internal life. The mystical path is bringing me home, to the God within me.

Posted by: Mary | July 29, 2004 6:57 PM

This is in response to Genevieve Towne: 1. Our family had no problems to blame on anyone else until my daughter became entrapped in this psycho/pseudo-spiritual bond, a.k.a. The Order of Christ/Sophia. 2. Who ever told you that society's primary value was pleasing everyone else? The society in which I live values the contributions one makes and the rewards are intrinsic. Who are you pleasing now? Could it be . . . . PETER? 3. The current condition of our planet requires us to take action, not to sit like a stone looking inward, counting the angels on the head of a pin. 4. We family members understand your search for the deeper inner path better than you think we do. We all hear the voice of God every day of our lives and it didn't take Peter Bowes to teach us how. Do you honestly believe you currently have free will? 5. I've been to the Order of Christ/Sophia Center and I've seen for myself that this order is, in fact, a destructive cult. My love and best wishes go out to you, Dear Child. Love, Another Heartbroken Mother

Posted by: ahmom | July 29, 2004 7:24 PM

In reponse to Mary Controlling parents? My goal in raising my children was to encourage them to become self-sufficient adults and to live their lives on their own. My own life is very full and I do not have the time, energy, or inclination to try to control my adult children. I was hoping, however, to be able to visit them and play with my grandchildren a couple times a year. My daughter is now under the control of the Order of Christ/Sophia and I am no longer welcome to visit with her. Her saint of a husband sees to it that I still see my grandchildren. PS Some of us are getting on in years and we may be gone by the time you wake up and want a relationship with us again.

Posted by: ahmom | July 29, 2004 7:50 PM

For anyone who is new to this issue- let me put this in perspective. There are about 75 people in the Order of Christ Sophia. We are very small- there is a lot of hate mail here. How likely is it that of so many of our very few member's families have ramdomly run across this website and decided to voice thier opinion? We are not a major debate topic in the general public. And in fact most of the famlies of people in the Order are not angry so I find it hard to believe that this is a free and random expression of people's feelings about the Order. There has been and organized attack on this order and I suspect that this is part of it. I honestly don't know for sure but I can't imagine that so many of the very few families that are angry ended up here by coincidence. I find it interesting that we are acused of being unloving becuase the postings I have read here and elsewhere are agressive and mean. I find it very cruel to be calling Father Peter names and to be suggesting that we are either malicously hurting people, or just crazy. I have read horrible lies and twists of what our practice and purpose is. I have been saddended and hurt by hearing such things from people who I have known and loved and who have become so vengeful. I respect everyone's right to thier feelings and perspective but I would appreciate it if people were more honest about thier postion and how they are affliated and/or coached with groups who are attacking the Order. I would also appreciate people being more honest about thier full experience of the Order and not speculating and attacking. Along those lines, I am Rev. Lucille and I am a priest of the OCS and I live in Oakland. A deacon friends of mine in Atlanta alerted me to this website and the opportinty to speak my piece. I read the postings and was upset by the spiteful nature of the accusations. I truned off the computor and went on to other things but the maliciousness of some of the postings brothered me and I came back on to give my perspective. I don't expect that this request will be honored but after reading the postings I felt uneasy and disturbed by the meaness so I felt I nedded to write. Thank you for your time. -Rev. Lucille

Posted by: Rev Lucille | July 30, 2004 12:12 PM

I am not a member or former member of the OSC, not friends with members or ex-members or affiliated with pro or anti cult groups. I am certainly not a part of any conspircy. I came upon this site by accident (no one emailed me and urged me to post here). And yet I have a story. I have a dear friend who was in a relationship with an OCS member and the relationship ended abruptly so the partner could pursue spiritual mastery - OCS style. My friend did not want the relationship to end, but there was absolutely no discussion allowed (except about financial matters). This was not done in a kind, humane or loving manner and my friend was hurt, confused and bewildered. It affected this person and their family deeply. I could only offer support and love (something that was not available from the former partner). One of the more devasting parts to my friend was the partner's refusal to discuss the break up, esp. since the OCS is supposedly headed by two "psychotherapists", who, one would think, would value counseling and discussion. Relationships break up everyday and in the long run it was the best for my friend (who would have been subjected to even more hurt by staying with this person) but this was not done in the spirit of any type of kindnesss, contrary to the OCS claims of LOVE being an important value in the organization. I do not know if this is typical of OCS relationships, but I did think at the time that the OCS was a cult, having been in one many years ago myself. I think that the reason that people are talking about this organization is not because of any vast conspiricy (cult thinking tends to run to paranoia), but because of the emotional damage inflicted on people - as I saw for myself. I do believe people in cults are brainwashed or often pursuaded to a particular point of view through psychological manipulation and are unwilling or unable to look honestly at the negative aspects of their organization or confront unethical behavior, often out of fear. I also believe that despite any good intentions (and I suspect most of the OCS members do have good intentions), if you are part of an organization that is causing harm and pain to others and you do nothing, then you are also responsible for that pain and suffering. The ends do not justify the means. Lastly, shame on you Mary and Rev. Lucille, for your posts defending the OCS and not even acknowledging the trauma of a child (a child!!) who posted right before you and detailed great neglect and trauma suffered while their parent was praying with the OCS. Where were you and were were your leaders when this child was suffering??? A friend of someone damaged by the OCS

Posted by: Gynna | July 30, 2004 2:25 PM

Hi Rev. Lucille. Peace be with you. We haven't met before. My wife is known as "Sophia" in your Order. She has been a student for over a year, and is now a deacon in training. I stand by every word I have posted on this site. I found this website on my own. I am not part of any conspiracy against you. I know of no organized attack against the Order, although I certainly know many people who have been hurt by the Order and feel compelled to share their experiences with others. No one has encouraged me to post here, or to search this website out. You're right, though, that there doesn't need to be any name calling. I don't agree with the teachings of the Order, but I don't think that makes the Order crazy or malicious. I don't discredit your opinion and experience with the Order. I would hope you're not trying to discredit the opinions or experiences of those non-students posting on this site. Personally, I have yet to be convinced that the Order is hurting others maliciously. But I have been hurt, and I personally know many others that have been hurt, in the name of the Order of Christ Sophia. The pain is real, and I don't like the suggesion that my feelings or opinions are somehow invalid for no reason other than they happen to be negative. I accept that you and a number of others (my wife included) feel they have gotten some really good things from the Order. Do you accept that me and a number of others feel they have been hurt by the Order? And then, more interestingly, what if anything does the Order see fit to do about it? Please don't assume I'm vengeful. My main motivation for sharing my feelings is to help prevent others from having to go through what I've gone through. I was atracted to this website because of the opportunity to get perspectives from both those who have had good experiences with the OCS and those who have had bad experiences with the OCS. You're right that it would be a shame if this turned into nothing more than one side of a debate discrediting the other side. I propose we let everyone share his or her experience without attacking opposing perspectives. And I also welcome your invitation to openness. If anyone is posting because they were encouraged to post by someone else (whether a cult deprogrammer or an OCS teacher) that would be good to share. I wonder if Richard Evans Lee knew what he was opening up by posting the Boston news story on this page :).

Posted by: spouse | July 30, 2004 2:47 PM

Similar things have happened with other entries in my various weblogs and websites. As long as everyone is civil it is OK with me and I won't interfere. Being concise is advised: as the page's size increases it will become increasingly slow to load.

Posted by: Richard | July 30, 2004 2:57 PM

My name is Michelle and I speak as a member of the Order of Christ/Sophia who has chosen to follow my heart. I have chosen to become part of a spiritual group that is leading me into deeper peace, love, honesty and respect for people. I have never experienced so much love, acceptence, and support of my growth as I have in this group. The Teachers of the Order have supported me coming into deeper connection with God and coming into maturity in my life, which involves taking responsibility for what I have created and changing the parts of me that have acted out of fear and anger. My parents, Nancy Wainer and Paul Cohen, have attacked the Order of Christ/Sophia and gone on television talking about the dangerousness of the group. They do not understand the transformational work that the Order does and they are attacking it with lies and misconceptions about what we do, fed to them by Rick Ross and other anti-cult "experts" who make money off of campaings against countless groups about the Order. The biggest misconception that has come up with my parents is that the Order, particularly the Teachers of the order, destroy relationships in families. For me the work I did with the Order gave insight I needed to approach my family and give us an opportunity to work out some of the issues from the past that had always prevented us from really connecting and understanding each other. My parents never accepted my choice to join the group and grow as a spirtual adult and so never opened to work on these issues that I brought up. I am writing in support of any adult's decision to choose God, to choose a path which promotes their own wholeness and their own fulfillment. The Order of Christ/Sophia has offered me an amazing opportunity to heal and to work with others who are committed to healing and stop hurting ourselves with guilt, self-hate, and habbits that do not promote love. I have a deep appreciation for the gifts that come through this spiritual Order, through the love of its Teachers and priests, and through its members as we work to bring its gifts of honesty and love to others.

Posted by: Michelle | July 30, 2004 7:07 PM

I think it is interesting that anyone who disagrees with the OCS or has negative experiences with the OCS is either: a) attacking the the order b) lying about their experiences c) not willing to hear the TRUTH d) being forced by anti-cult experts to say bad things for financial gain. Amused

Posted by: cici | July 30, 2004 8:14 PM

Indeed, Cici. There appears to be no room for a genuine negative experience. I can't imagine I'm the first person to ever have a genuine negative experience with a church organization. That's why I really value those people posting who, instead of worrying about discrediting those of different views, are coming forward with their own stories of good experiences. That strikes me as a much more positive way to defend the OCS.

Posted by: spouse | July 30, 2004 9:37 PM

Rev. Lucille: I am not affliated with anyone or any organization to speak out against OCS. I found this site on my own. My parent doesn't even know that I have come here. I thought that this would be a good place to tell my story to people who have or are going through similar problems to let them know that they are not alone and perhaps to get some support of my own (which I have, thank you).

Posted by: child of former member | July 31, 2004 1:20 AM

To child of former member: You sound like a strong, resourceful and very bright young person. My heart goes out to you as you travel your path towards healing. Peace

Posted by: cici | July 31, 2004 1:15 PM

I have been a student of the Order for 4 years. In that time, every aspect of my life has improved, including my relationships with my friends and family, thanks to the loving counseling of the teachers at the Order. I now feel like a whole person who is connected to God. In the 4 years I have been with the Order I have NEVER witnessed anyone being manipulated into doing anything they didn't want to do. Instead, I have seen people's relationships healed and strengthened. I have seen people get on their feet financially. I have seen people get the medical care they need to heal ailments. I have seen people become open and loving. I have seen people take responsibility for their lives in ways that most people never accomplish. This is a loving healing valid path for many people, but certainly not everyone. It is my prayer that everyone can find a place that serves them as well as the Order of Christ Sophia has served me.

Posted by: Carol | July 31, 2004 2:06 PM

I've been involved with the spiritual school of the Order of Christ/Sophia for 4 years and I've been a committed student for over 2 years. The spiritual training I received at the school brought peace, strength and clarity to my life. My desire is to love and to open fully to God's love in my everyday life. Is the process of opening always easy? No; Is it possible? Yes; Is it painful to go back to the wounds and feel the fears, the anger and the sadness? Yes; Did I heal these wounds when I was ready? Yes; Is it worth it? YES. The relationships with my son, my husband who is not in the order, my friends and co-workers are deeper, more conscious and mindful. I am a different person. But, it is what I wanted when I went to the school. I thank the priests and ministers in the order who were willing to help me and go through the process with me. I wish to anyone to find their own path in life. Marie-Noelle Boston

Posted by: Marie-Noelle | July 31, 2004 8:48 PM

We all have differing opinions, however facts are not so malleable and the facts show that OCS has hurt many people, caused family splits and engendered divorces. When asked how you could tell a Christian, Christ responded by "their fruit", that is by the results they leave in their wake. OCS's fruit speaks volume. If you haven't checked it out, see a site organized by family members of OCS adherents - ocsfam.org. Much good info. for both OCS members and their families. PEACE

Posted by: Jack | August 2, 2004 11:35 AM

Someone felt I should intervene in the comments. The person was a member of Order of Christ Sophia this was my reply: I've pretty much decided to let the exchanges play out without intervention. I find meddling with user comments offensive and only do so when strongly provoked. I've accepted some disgusting comments from homophobes. It is a very difficult position to have my own personal feelings and do my best to not stop or delete comments. Since I have no emotional investment in your controversy I don't find the words you cite as anything other than typical of heated debate which is not the same as hate speech. And I do make a very real distinction between people who comment from a vantage point of percieved pain and those who are simply spewing nastiness.

Posted by: Richard Evans Lee (website owner) | August 2, 2004 3:52 PM

Thank you for providing this space on the internet to talk about the Order of Christ Sophia. It is so helpful to have a place to express views and for people to read about the Order and whether it is a good place for them and what to expect from such a place. It helps to see the language control that , at least seems to me, to be so defensive. I would say that I found the website on my own. There seems to be no effort by a "group" that is undermining these postings. Just people who have been hurt by the Order and their ways of working. My heart goes out to those that stand aside and watch their loved ones get confused about what is real spiritual growth and what is half real and halkf imposed by the reflections of their teacher. I proppose that people really learn about spiritual teachers before they take one on.

Posted by: ann | August 2, 2004 8:21 PM

Dear A Mom, If you have absolutely no desire to control your daughter, what I said probably doesn't refer to you. I was more talking about those parents who have pulled stunts like going on TV or such things because they are unhappy with how their adult children are living. Know though that just because you don't think you're trying to influence your daughter doesn't mean she doesn't feel like you are. Many times parent/child relationships can be so complicated because of the expectations and extended history that characterize them. In my own relationship with my parents, I have more than once felt like they were not leaving me free to live my life as I wished. When I brought this up to them, almost invariably they said they had no desire to control me and wanted me to be independent. And yet, I still felt controlled. I could not deny my experience and feelings, and would have felt profoundly disrespected if they would not have listened to me and flat out told me I was wrong. That would have felt like what I mean by "controlling" too. Like only they were right, and if I didn't see it as they saw it, I was wrong, and I just needed to come to their way of seeing things. That's not leaving me free to be me. This is part of the subleties I refer to. I say just ask your daughter. Open up the lines of communication and be willing to truly hear what she has to say. Ask her why she feels like she can't visit with you. There surely is a reason. Let her know you want to have a real adult-to-adult relationship with her - meaning you respect her feelings and thoughts as equally as your own. As a daughter myself, this is what I would desire. Wouldn't you? Sincerely, Mary

Posted by: Mary | August 2, 2004 9:13 PM

Book suggestions illustrating Student/Teacher relationships: * "The Last Barrier" - by Reshad Feild * "The Way of the Peaceful Warrior" - by Dan Millman * "Autobiography of a Yogi" - by Paramhansa Yogananda Others?

Posted by: Mary | August 2, 2004 9:17 PM

Another book A Path with Heart Jack Kornfield Has several complete chapters on teachers and students and communities.

Posted by: ann | August 3, 2004 12:20 PM

I have been reading this website for a week now as a silent observer. I too am somehow connected with this "order" as they call themselves. In the helping profession, they may be more of a "disorder" as they inflict harm, pain and suffering, and confusion on the balance they had experienced at home. Now I know that many have suffered at home and wish for a better life. I find it to be cooincidental that many "order of Christ sofia" members come from an environment where there is some sort of suffering, whether it be parental control, low self image, depression, etc. But how many claim to join merely for the spiritual journey. And how many CHURCHES of GOD have a website such as this confronting its members, founders, etc. that they are hurting the family members. For example, children...food for order's thought.

Posted by: A friend of a FRIEND | August 3, 2004 1:50 PM

Books to check out about the teacher/student relationship. Both are personal accounts of the disillusionment and spiritual abuse that can occur: The Direct Path by Andrew Harvey - his message - you can have a direct relationship with God without an "intermediary" The Mother of God by Luna Turlo, the mother of self-styled American "guru" Andrew Cohen

Posted by: booklvr | August 3, 2004 9:36 PM

I, too, am a minister of this Order and I have chosen so of my own accord, with a sound and happy mind and heart. I can honestly say that I understand the perspectives given here of the hurt, anger, and disagreement you feel the Order and its members has caused you. Speaking from my own experience of my relationships, I found before I came to the Order that all of my relationships had the same characteristics: I allowed myself to be put in a "box" of how I interact with each person in my life (and vice versa), and there were these silent "deals" we would make with each other that enabled us to get our needs met, and understandably so. I would venture to say that most, if not all, relationships are based on these things. As I looked at these "deals" and "boxes" that my relationships were rampant with, I saw all of the places where I went small, where I gave over my power, where I took it, where I was mean, etc. The more I saw, the more I wanted those relationships changed. Changing the deals and boxes I described above can be jostling and quite alarming to both parties, but especially the ones on the other end that hasn't initiated the change. The thing is, when those things are looked at and changed, that change was best for the relationship because my interactions were cleaner and those friends didn't feel the weight of the restrictive box I had placed them in for so many years. Point being, I'm suggesting that those who have been hurt and angered by the Order and/or its members could have felt the jostling of those relationship changes I named above. Obviously the person wouldn't have made a change in the relationship if they didn't want to or think it best. Any time we are freed from something, such as a "box" or "deal", both parties (whether conscious of the change or not) will feel the awkwardness of the change as it is so new. The end result leaves a cleaner, healthier relationship whether each participant sees it or not; the relationship is being purged of the sticky relating, where they are seen as the source of all love, all attention, all peace, all everything, and this is not where we should be looking. This is what my relationships are like now. I can completely love my friends and family and feel loved in return, and respect their decisions with whatever they choose in life because I know they are doing what they think is best, I can see God in each and every person, and at the same time, I'm not "needing" anything from them in return. Those are the kinds of relationships I have worked on creating in my life. It didn't feel comfortable to have the other kind of relationships where one or both parties lost their power and right to fully express without the fetters we placed on each other.

Posted by: Carin | August 4, 2004 12:16 AM

Carin~ You say that you are doing what is best for you and you are now at peace, relationships are better, etc. My question for you is...how many of those past relationships that you had did you sever as a result of your new ideology? Can you say that quest for new "freedoms", getting out of the box you put yourself in, etc. helped those around you as well, or just you? If your order is helping so many, than why are there so many crying for help in the wake of the "freedoms" from the boxes you have broken out of? Again, what about the severed relationships with family members, friends, etc. who are getting smashed as a direct result of the "me centered", "everything is for me" attitude that I have grown accustomed to seeing from your members? I have met more than a few members. What about the children who may be left behind? What about their suffering that they have to endure while your members get "healthy"?

Posted by: friend of a FRIEND | August 5, 2004 2:37 PM

Questions: Would someone in the Order define love? Would someone define healthy relationships? Would someone define why family and friends of the past can't be a part of someone's life once they are in the order? Can someone define why the teachers/priests/deacons are the most knowing and are the most capable in telling what others should do? This would be very helpful.

Posted by: ann | August 5, 2004 7:32 PM

As a family member of an OCS member, I'm having a hard time dealing with the array of emotions that I must deal with as a result of the spiritual decisions that my sibling is making. First, I am fearful that I may forever loose a beloved person whom I should be able to continue to grow with and enjoy the numerous remaining experiences of our lives together. Second, I'm very hurt that my family and I have been pushed away because we can't offer a perfect relationship. Third, I am angry that I have to witness my parents fear and pain at the thought of having lost thier precious child. Worst of all is the sadness I feel for the immediate family of my sibling. They are the ones who truly need my sibling's love and attention. If the moment comes when my sibling disassociates from the OCS, much of the fear, hurt, anger and sadness will be erased from my life. Not to be selfish, but I think that that would be best for my spiritual development.

Posted by: Missing You | August 6, 2004 1:22 AM

Waiting for the response to my questions posted ? Defintion of love? Why outsiders,i.e. family, friends get excluded? Why Guidance must be taken from teachers, priests,deacons before one learns his/her own? Addition: What is compassion, the world may not seem the same when you experience spiritual growth in this Order ....but for outsider: What is their the experience of compassion? Of love? What you can give? Share? What is with the "exclusion and distance" from loved ones before that now separates(some of you)... now that you are in the Order? Who does the Creator refuse? Why are not you a vehicle for healing instead of hurt? Is the letter writing healing? Truly healing? For all? What other methods would be more helpful? Prayer? Is the love available or exclusive? Are you not able to be with others who do not "see"? They are in pain. They don't "get" it. Be with them. Help them along. Sincerely, Ann

Posted by: ann | August 8, 2004 10:56 PM

Dear Missing You~ I am sorry about your circumstance with your sibling. Too often cults pressure their members to leave behind what they call poor relationships, transgressions, etc. You are collateral damage, unfortunately and the order does not care about you, me, my friend, etc. All they care about is themselves. Also unfortunate, is that they too will be judged. One of the commandments Thou shalt not place any god before me. This is violated daily, is a sin, and God will judge them accordingly, to His way, no matter what the order says. Again, I am truly sorry for you and your family. To Ann~ You have a lot of hurt showing in your comments. I am willing to bet that the order will not sincerely answer you, but rather either ignore your statements, or call them an attack as they characteristically often do. This is their M.O. To Spouse~ Your spouse is, as I believe, being brainwashed by the order/disorder of the CHRIST sophia. They use psychological manipulation, that is, the person feels better due to therapy they receive and attribute it to spiritual healing. It is classic, but most unfortunate for you and your family.

Posted by: friend of a FRIEND | August 11, 2004 3:01 PM

To friend of a FRIEND: I know they won't answer my questions.They never seem to answer a direct question. It always seems like a side step or a re-direct question. Part of the ambiguity,part of the manipulation to keep you going. I hope that anyone "teetering" about the Order may gain some insight if they are reading these posts.Which is why I posted questions. It seems once you are deeply in, you are too sunk into their pattern of thinking you can't see the other side. I was there. Ann

Posted by: ann | August 12, 2004 9:13 AM

I would really like to hear from family and friends of OCS members who have said they now have healthier relationships since being in the Order. I would like to hear something positive from someone who is not in the Order. I am not a Buddhist, but I have great respect for those following the Buddhist path...the same goes for many religious practices. I am not someone who opposes everything that I don't personally practice or believe. I have yet to hear from someone (outside of the Order) who thinks the Order is creating more love and kindness in the world. To members of the Order: I believe the Order's teaching is to dissolve the ego, so to allow God and pure love to shine through you, correct? Other practices (Buddhism) do the same thing and I don't believe it's a negative thing. Is it possible, though, that the Order really doesn't help to rid you of your ego. I see much defensiveness in the responses.....isn't this the ego talking? Could it be your ego that is not allowing you to admit you are hurting others, and your ego that won't let you admit you made an error in judgement in being in the Order. It's your ego that is keeping you stuck. I've met Peter Bowes....he's very egotistical. A dear friend of mine (in the Order) saw this in Peter, and yet dismissed it...because he saw the good intentions in the other members of OCS (and he was promised self-realization in 2 - 3 years). Please take a good honest look at any spiritual "master" teacher before chosing him/her. Wouldn't it be better to choose a path taught by someone who folllows his own teachings? Please consider this. With love

Posted by: mindful | August 13, 2004 1:35 PM

I get the feeling that the order is not allowed to respond anymore inspite of our questions/concerns. I would say that I am not surprised.

Posted by: friend of a FRIEND | August 13, 2004 3:39 PM

Friend of a Friend, You wrote: I get the feeling that the order is not allowed to respond anymore inspite of our questions/concerns. I would say that I am not surprised. Actually, we have free will- as all humans have been granted. No one has told anyone to stop communicating here- that would be a violation of free will. From what I read above much of the talk has not been productive or positive, thus, not to engaging.

Posted by: Member of the Order | August 13, 2004 5:51 PM

To Order Member: Precisely. You didn't answer any questions. Put to the door ....you don't respond, you use the Order of response which is non-responsive, seemingly cloaked, unclear .... I encourage direct dialog and response to my questions? Is this so hard? Are my questions so un-interesting?Kindly suggest engaging conversation.I feel very engaged in my questions.Are they invalid? I feel my questions are very positive, I invite your response. Thank you. Ann

Posted by: ann | August 13, 2004 7:55 PM

To Member of the Order: I do want to understand. Please explain to me how it can be free will if you must ask for permission in order to do simple things like go for coffee or to a movie (my friend in OCS feels he has to do this). Are you saying that he really doesn't need to? I will tell him this....that another member said it isn't necessary to ask for permission (or as he calls it: "seek guidance")....perhaps he's misunderstanding. And if you do "seek guidance" is it OK not to follow it? This puzzles me and doesn't appear to me to be free will. Thank you for engaging in a dialogue about this.

Posted by: mindful | August 15, 2004 9:07 AM

In response to mindful: Guidance is used by myself and others to help us act in accord with God's will to the best of our ability. I have never felt that this practice has limited my freedom. Rather it affords me new options that I never would have otherwise found if I had not asked. I am glad to bring God into more aspects of my life in this manner. I would also like to respond to ann and 'spouse' who have both made pointed comments about secrecy and claim that OCS members avoid making direct statements (which I don't get because at the same time we are accused of stirring up trouble in our families by confronting things that others would rather avoid). I know you both. You have both had opportunities to question me in person about your concerns; one of you very recently. I'm not used to this sort of internet exchange and prefer in- person contact which feels like a more humane way to air concerns. You want me to answer a series of questions but wouldn't ask me those things to my face. I encourage you to speak what is on your mind next time we meet. I am trying very hard to make a difference on this earth, to direct my thoughts, feelings and statements in a manner that will create more love on this planet. I know I'm not perfect, but I am a stronger, more effective and loving person since being taught about the nature of God and how to open up to God at OCS. For me being part of OCS has made real the statement: "Love God with all your heart..." And I wouldn't be able to do this without loving all of God's children. In my life this has meant different things with different people. Some I needed to confront; some I needed to learn to accept as they are. In either case I have never been encouraged to try to force change on anyone. Each one of us makes choices. I respect your choices to seek God as you wish, to accept or not accept me. Please respect my choices. My family and friends do. Yet, I see that each one responds from their own capacity to listen and love. We are all different in this. Some have made a commitment to looking at and working through limitations; some adamently resist seeing the pain they have caused others. My prayer is to learn to love you all more deeply. Sincerely, Rachel.

Posted by: Rachel Alberts | August 16, 2004 1:50 AM

To: Rachel From: Ann How do I know you? I am not aware of any recent contact....in years.... And very willing to dialog. Should we switch to personal e-mail? My address is: dillona@sbcglobal.net

Posted by: ann | August 16, 2004 1:51 PM

To Rachael: Are you able to disagree with the guidance that if offered? Can you chose to do something else? Have you ever gone against guidance? Once, last year, I ran into my friend from OCS accidentally....we went for coffe and while we were enjoying a nice conversation, in a rather surprised fashion, he said that he "didn't feel guilty about our meeting and having coffee together"....what we were doing was not OK with OCS and I could see that it made him nervous. Since then I haven't seen him (we've spoke on the phone a few times). Why would this happen? I believe he didn't want to disolve our friendship, and yet he has. Is this the kind of love and companssion that the OCS teaches? As I've said I would like to hear from family and friends who are not in the Order, who believe that their relationships are now better with the Order member. I'm still trying to understand.

Posted by: mindful | August 16, 2004 3:11 PM

To Rachel and Member of Order: Neither of you have answered any of my questions, yet you seem to cite God and hide behind religion as an "answer" to our questions. The frustrating piece for me is that I am also very religious, however isn't the Word of God so important that you are being asked, nee, told by Him to spread the Word to your fellow man? I could try to quote scripture, however, you may just try to use Peter as god himself. This is sinful in itself! Ann, spouse, mindful, and many others want answers. I feel that you and the order hide behind your order and refuse to allow others in. For example, when you have retreats in California or Florida. If the family member is not a member, then why the secrecy? Shouldn't family members be afforded the common courtesy of being able to share with their loved ones? How can marriages sustain a relationship when secrets are being kept, information being withheld, people being scrutinized? I will wait for an answer. By the way, I am not ashamed to tell you that I have told my fellow Christians and churchmembers about this site. We are all praying for you and the families for which feel negatively affected by you.

Posted by: friend of a FRIEND | August 17, 2004 1:41 PM

the order has taken another...sad...ruined a family again!!!

Posted by: friend of a FRIEND | August 18, 2004 4:29 PM

Friend of a friend, I have heard (in the USA) that anywhere from 1 out of 2 to 1 out of 3 marriages end in divorce. The numbers are almost as high when people marry for a second time. Go search the web and look at the statistics. Can anyone seriously say that the problem has anything to do with a persons spiritual beliefs or practices? How many "sad ruined families" are out there that have mainstream spiritual practices or no spiritual practice at all? You are looking in the wrong area if you want to be part of the solution.

Posted by: reality | August 23, 2004 11:09 AM

Dear Reality, Perhaps you'd have a point if Friend was only talking about another marriage breaking up. While I don't know his/her specific story...from what I've read and what I've seen it appears that many, if not most, of the people hurt by OCS are not spouses....they are parents, siblings and friends who have been alienated from their children, their brothers and sisters, and their dear friends. That's hardly the same as saying that the reality is only 1 in 3 marriages last anyway. Perhaps you could look closely at what is happening here and you would understand. I would invite you to consider this....with love.

Posted by: mindful | August 23, 2004 11:23 AM

I agree with the last posting and would like to add that although I have asked for contact and clearer questions from the OCS people the communication stops.No one has answered or replied. There is no question in my mind that they have some spiritual growth I question why the families and friends are seemingly necessary to let go of. I encourage that if interested they look deeper into themselves why that separation is necessary. I understand and have experienced that part of letting go. Of material things, old patterns, expectations, but it seems to "stuck" in the Order and seems a reflection of the Teachers need and not the need of the students necessarily.....this is where harm is done.....and it is NOT growth,* it hurts,is harmful to others and is " stunted" spiritual growth.I have never experienced more growth then being with the people that love me and yes, I have changed, but it is so much richer....I chose them to be involved with as a soul and they are learning so much... as they can,this is your gift to them, not something to walk from. (The methodology and understanding of the Teachers is thwarted and not healthy and you already "Know" that)* That is serving and healing and to not address that in a loving way is something I encourage you to address. Research and contemplate.....if you choose.Read others books, information on the web, explore the possibility it can be different. I survived the group and believe me their are places I have found much richer and more compassionate. The teachers in the OCS ar not the only ones and not the fastest path and not the end all. Ann

Posted by: ann | August 23, 2004 7:28 PM

If The OCS is Loving God with heart mind and soul and if God is first in all things, than why dishonor and cut off family members? God is within Fathers, Mothers sisters, brothers, and friends, and all your acquaintances. They are all a reflection of you and your Dharma path. The family you came from is a part of your personal Dharma and any one, (Even if he / she is a teacher) who comes between you and your Dharma is incurring a debt upon them selves. I encureg and invite you to write positive letters to reunite your self with your loved ones. One like this: Dear Mom Dad Sister Brother, Friend I love you so deeply and I miss your smiling heart I am coming home. I am so grateful to you for being in my life and I miss your care. I treasure you like my soul and I love you just the way you are. Nothing you’ve ever done will change my love for you. There is nothing I would change about you. I see the infinite greatness in your soul and I want to be home to share our heart to hearts together again, these are the things that have giving life to our family tradition. Your name------------------------- This is how we lay our life’s down for our friends. Liberation comes as a result of an unconditional relationship to all things. Enlightenment isn’t attained by focusing on our short comings or by picking apart our psyche or blaming or parents. But by having the courage to release the past and live fully in the present. The fulfillment of realization doesn’t come by trying to be perfect but by Perfecting Being. The freedom of choices is choosing freedom from every avenue, considering the well fair of all circumstances, and concerning its affects on all those around you. In other words if there’s something unloving going on than it’s not love and should be changed. A friend of an ex member.

Posted by: A friend and a Buddhist | August 24, 2004 3:44 AM

To friend and a buddhist, Have you considered that it is the families, through their actions that have caused there own problems? For example, if every time you spoke to your family they accused you of being brainwashed because of your beliefs and treated you as such how long should you let them do this? Are you not building negative karma for enabling them to treat you poorly? Every conversation with them had the undertone that I was a fool. At every point I turned a blind eye toward their negativity and forgave. In my case, I endured it for well over a year before I said enough. If I did as you suggested and wrote a letter like that, I would be opening the door for them to harass me more about my beliefs and would be telling them that what they have done is ok. It was not my love that changed for them, it was their conditonal love that set rules about who I was and what I should be like when I was with them. Blessings to you.

Posted by: consider | August 24, 2004 7:21 AM

To "consider", I understand the need to remove oneself from unhealthy relationships. My concern is that I have always been supportive of my friend in the order yet she continued to cut off from friends, family members, and myself. I shared years of friendship and memories and love with this person and have always had an open mind to her path. I can't imagine anything in our relationship that would cause separation, and if there were any reason, I have always been open to talk and listend.I miss her and am both concerned and confused. Please help me to understand why supportive friends and family members have lost contact with their loved one in the order.

Posted by: concerned | August 26, 2004 8:15 AM

My experience is similar to concerned's. My friend and I had a healthy, loving, relationship. I supported his desire to grow spiritually. We talked in great length about it. I'm on a different path, but I realize there are many paths...and so did he. He was hopeful that we could continue to at least meet for coffee and still get together but after he sought guidance about it and was told no, he stopped all contact with me. He was very conflicted about it, but felt compelled...in fact I would say afraid...not to follow the guidance. This is when I decided the Order was unhealthy and yes, then I did speak against it when I did get a chance to talk to him (which was seldom...and only when I called him). I would invite anyone in the Order, who says their family and/or friends are speaking negatively about OCS to try and remember when it started...perhaps it began when the teachers in OCS stopped letting them have relationships outside of the Order. Please consider this....with love.

Posted by: mindful | August 26, 2004 10:40 AM

To Consider: Embarassed? with people and their opinions? family and being considered in a cult?Love and True Compassion would be the real truth and you would have no shame or problem with anyone.....this is what the OCS does, they have some truth but it is not enlightment and it is not love, I encourage you to re-read these messages at this site and to read Jack Kornfields book A Path with Heart. Or search out Father Paul's lessons on the internet of Cosmic Consciousness, or Sam Lewis ....you will find a different bent and one that is not attached to the Order experience that Peter presents and Claire expouses.....that is how they learned it doesn't mean you have to go that way. I just want to communicate options...in my memory the group gave no options and every teacher or teaching outside the Order was not as "good" or "fast". Has it been introduced to you that you are in the "only" group that has the teachings or that if you left you were somehow tainted , you may become ill, or somwhow you have disappionted Jesus and Mary......that is a controlling, manipulating and untrue statement.It certainly does not reflect Love. Ann

Posted by: ann | August 26, 2004 8:26 PM

I have been away and sorry for the absence. I want to help my fellow "collateral damage" victims with the cult. It is a cult, does damage like a cult, gets ornry and defensive like a cult, and they respond like a cult. Like the old saying...looks like a duck...quacks like a duck, then it's a duck. WE all know the truth. However, they do not see it for what it is because they are "in" it. They will have to wait years before they can see the damage they've done...burning the path (bridges). My friend said it was not brain washing. I disagree. Peter is not God. He can claim to be all he wants, but the bible says that there is only one God. My God is a fair and just God, but also expects obediance. Peter is not being obediant...too bad for him. I will pray for you all. My church goes out of its way to recruit new members and has an open door policy. I am inviting any one of you to come. No strings. Just let me know.

Posted by: friend of a Friend | September 7, 2004 7:07 PM

OCS is a cult. "Father" Pete is not a priest, reverend, or any other kind of trained or knowledgeable man of God. He is a disbarred psychologist from Wisconsin! Hello, can anyone say David Koresh, or other similar self appointed messengers of God? One of his henchwomen in the Boston aea actually calls herself "Mother Mary", who is herself a midwife, again with no seminary or other evangelical credentials. It is sad that persons like these take advantage of the weak of heart, those who search for understanding of all things, and those who simply cannot live without the structure that religion provides for weak minded individuals.

Posted by: Pat | September 11, 2004 11:53 PM

Pat - How right you are! OCS is a psycho/pseudo-spiritual cult. Peter wasn't able to cure his patients so he conned them into joining his cult. He continues to collect the emotionally unstable and keep them in his mental institution with no hope of release. If you read Clare's book it screams, "I am a paranoid schizophrenic!" She will be incensed (anger and hate are her favorinte words) that I have dissed her order. Well, in her book she brags about receiving Communion in the Catholic Church without benefit of Baptism. That practice is very disrespectful to faithful Catholics.

Posted by: Jane | September 12, 2004 9:32 PM

Hey, there, OCS. I was reading The Edge and noticed that the Milwaukee OCS is now marketing itself as the "Milwaukee Center of Light". What's with that? Anyone with any info care to explain or comment beyond the usual "we got guidance" rap? I'm looking for some true info here, not propaganda. Public pressure? Bill collectors? We're interested so please fill us in. Hope to hear from you soon. Burned

Posted by: Burned | September 13, 2004 9:00 PM

Wow, this is a pretty cool page. Power of the internet, etc. I hadn't read the postings above before I added that question about the Milwaukee Center of Light. I hope someone answers that soon. But that made me think of another question I had. Why is Rev. Margaret no longer listed at the Denver recruitment center? After that flap on the Milwaukee news last year, you'd have thought she was in for the duration. What gives? What's with the whole turnover thing. If there's really only 75 members (according to one of the above postings) that's not such a hot record for all these years is it? I'd call it a bit short of a major movement. A lot of people don't seem to like it much. Well, I hope somebody writes back because I liked Rev.Margaret, with her love of birds, and would lilke to know what happened to her. Don't forget about that name change thing, OK?

Posted by: Burned | September 13, 2004 9:28 PM

Don't know why they changed their name. There seems to be an overall rebranding. Perhaps to avoid the negative publicity? After all, people who google "Center of Light" aren't going to get the sites with the negative stories. As for Rev. Margaret, my understanding is that she left her husband earlier this year, but I don't know details. Another OCS marriage ended. I never got the impression there were ever that many married people in the OCS to begin with. How many are left?

Posted by: cut out | September 14, 2004 10:18 AM

I have also heard that Rev. Margaret left her husband...and I agree that marriages and other relationships don't last in the Order. The last time I spoke with my friend in the Order he reminded me that it's not healthy to have "attachments". That's a major misuse of the Buddhist philosophy, if you ask me. The Buddhist monk Thich Nhat Hahn has a lot to say about the importance of family and maintaining good relationships with them. It's very sad that OCS incorrectly uses good teachings to keep people separate from their loved ones. An excellent question about the name change...I think most reasonable people will just shake there heads in disbelieve ...such nerve the OCS has! It's gotta be a marketing ploy. Then again it's possible that Peter and Clare actually believe they are enlightened. From my experience, OCS is not about love and not about enlightenment. It's been a long time since anyone in the Order has responded here. It's unfortunate, but I think there has been given a "spiritual" direction to stop the communication....or am I wrong?

Posted by: mindful | September 14, 2004 4:26 PM

I'm sure you are correct that Herr Commandant would not like the troops fratenizing with the enemy. Once they're in, they're in. People can only break free if their self esteem grows enough to be tired of being controlled (rare); or if the outside connections are strong enough (some have left to preserve marriages and families) or they just get tired of the hypocrisy and being pushed around by a couple of spiritual bullies. But people have to come out on their own. Don't hold your breath.

Posted by: Burned | September 14, 2004 7:26 PM

I would like to add to your comments listed above this one that I agree with both of you in all accounts. Sounds to me that the OCS group is not allowed to respond. I challenged them earlier last month and got a minor bite, however what I do know as it seems that you do also is that if they are told to be silent, they are. They do not dare to have their own free opinions or free will! Give them that and they may disagree eventually. Sounds to me like a mini communist-socialist group, doesn't it?

Posted by: friend of a FRIEND | September 15, 2004 6:32 PM

I encourage the commentary. I believe the members do read the this site. They may have been "ordered" in the Peter and Clare way to not respond. That means that,again, they are told not to respond or look at other options for personal growth. Learning how to grow is very important. Being in touch with your true self is paramount.... Following a teachcer's guidance is not growth it is being a parrot ....a puppet. You cannot let go under duress. You let go entirely when you completely understand the means. Anything else is simply pleasing another to gain approval. Individuality and soul growth for your own path is the key. The only key that will give you enlightment. True enlightment. Real compassion. Real understanding of how to love. Ann

Posted by: ann | September 16, 2004 8:32 PM

Wonderful comments Ann! Thank you! I hope the members of OCS are still reading this site!

Posted by: mindful | September 17, 2004 6:16 PM

I have been reading the last few postings and thought about the lack of response from OCS. I suspect that they feel this is just a continuation of their "persecution" by those of the "material world". Believing as they do that their path follows the pattern of Jesus' life, in some strange way, this re-inforces their belief that what they are doing is "right". I have to say, that in their defense, what I was taught by them was NEVER taught to me by any other religous or spiritual group. Though I chose not to stay a part of their organization, I have come away with tools to continue along the Inner Path that I am extremely grateful for. I know that there is much anger and hurt out there from the loss of loved ones to the OCS and my reply may trigger this, but I hope not. I kind of think of them as a mixed bag, good with the questionable, (my husband thinks all bad). But I think that they really are not worried what the world thinks because they feel their vision and mission is beyond ours.

Posted by: been there, done that | September 21, 2004 7:06 PM

I have been reading the last few postings and thought about the lack of response from OCS. I suspect that they feel this is just a continuation of their "persecution" by those of the "material world". Believing as they do that their path follows the pattern of Jesus' life, in some strange way, this re-inforces their belief that what they are doing is "right". I have to say, that in their defense, what I was taught by them was NEVER taught to me by any other religous or spiritual group. Though I chose not to stay a part of their organization, I have come away with tools to continue along the Inner Path that I am extremely grateful for. I know that there is much anger and hurt out there from the loss of loved ones to the OCS and my reply may trigger this, but I hope not. I kind of think of them as a mixed bag, good with the questionable, (my husband thinks all bad). But I think that they really are not worried what the world thinks because they feel their vision and mission is beyond ours.

Posted by: been there, done that | September 21, 2004 7:06 PM

To "been there, done that": Thanks for sharing your experience. I agree that the OCS teaches its students to expect to be attacked for their spiritual choices. Actually, from what I've seen, they teach them to fear their loved ones as people who disrespect them, want to control them, and who will even kidnap and brainwash them. OCS students are told to carry cell phones so they can dial 911 if they are kidnapped and deprogrammed. And they are told to be grateful for this testing of their faith, to "be strong" and not let themselves be turned away by those who would "destroy them." I frankly am disgusted by such manipulative use of fear. In my opinion, that's not spiritual -- it's fascist. I also disagree that the OCS is "not really worried" about what others think. I think the OCS is threatened by others sharing their negative experiences. The OCS responds to websites like this one and news stories about it by telling the students to "take action" to counter the bad press. The OCS tries to discredit those who express negative experiences -- both to its students and publicly. The OCS tries to get websites to erase negative postings (as documented in this very thread). And -- most cruelly -- the OCS pushes students to cut out loved ones from their lives if their loved ones dare to share negative feelings and opinions about the OCS. I know because it happened to me and most others in my family. The OCS cares very much about what people think about it. The OCS is afraid, and works very hard to control what is known and said about it.

Posted by: cut out | September 22, 2004 11:20 AM

Dear Cut Out, I left the OCS just as things started heating up. After I left I had heard of attempts by family members to woo their loved ones away from the OCS but had never heard of an abduction. It does surprise me about the fear they are propagating among their students. But many things changed about the OCS over the time I was with them. Telling them they are being tested, that doesn't surprise me at all. I am sorry to hear how you and your family have been so hurt, your hurt is very evident. It is sad that your loved one cannot appreciate it for what it is instead of thinking this is a means of controlling them. All I can do is pray for you and them, that you can mend this wall between you. I still have my own marital issues I am working on, we have come a long way but are we healed? no, not yet. Those wounds created are very deep and hard to mend. Blessings to you.

Posted by: been there, done that | September 22, 2004 6:59 PM

Hi -- No -- OCS students were not TOLD to not respond, but really -- what's the point? How much time needs to be invested in the same circle? You learn from experiences or you object to them. You shed light on issues the best you can and live your life. You continue on your own way and bring your growth with you, or you focus on a chosen path and add that pattern to ways that are meaningful on the deepest level to which you can open. No one who's been searching and becoming clearer for any amount of years (or lifetimes) is living with blinders on. Peace . . . and Relax. There's lots to learn.

Posted by: Still a student | October 7, 2004 12:50

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