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Don't let public school become Bible school

• Miseducation

Frankenmuth couple Robert and Marcia Stoddard say the Bible is a literary masterpiece that deserves a serious study in schools.

Lansing atheist Spike Tyson calls the holy Scriptures nothing more than an artfully contrived lie fit for use as toilet paper.

The Frankenmuth Board of Education listened to views on both sides Monday as more than 100 residents filled the cafeteria at Rittmueller Middle School, 965 E. Genesee. ...

The Stoddards are asking the Frankenmuth School District to establish the course at the High School, 525 E. Genesee. They appeared before the school panel -- which said it might go into the next school year before deciding the issue -- with petitions signed by more than 1,000 adults and 216 students

Tyson mocked the Christian belief that the Bible is holy and is a standard for living.

"This is a book that endorses murder, slavery, adultery ... is that what you want to be teaching your students? I don't think so," he said.

"Give me a break."

Paul Wyche, Saginaw News: Sides square off on school Bible class

Richard Evans Lee
January 14, 2004 •
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Comments

So, telion, what you are saying is that you would be out there lieing, stealing, raping and murdering if your omnipotent friend hadn't threatened you with eternal burning? It's truly scary that there are people like you out there-I must remind myself to stay away from theists as you're obviously immoral and degenerate. Terri

Posted by: Terri | January 14, 2004 11:22 PM

You miss the whole point....by nature no one can stand under GOD's standard of goodness. By nature humans are evil...I'm not saying that I would be a mass killer, but the bible says "He who is angry with his brother is in danger of judgement(Matthew5:21-26)...and he who hates his brother is a murderer(1John3:15). You see God looks at a man's heart....going down tho the very root of thing. GOD is holy and just...it takes perfection to get to him...by being perfect your life. No one one is able to do this because it is not in their nature. He was not willing that any would face the punishment of their crimes against him...so he had his Son to pay the penalty(Romans6:23...the wages of sin(your crimes against GOD) is death) for us. Jesus came down and lived a perfect life, yet HE died for us. He was beaten for our lies...wiped because of our acts of hatred. And worst of all HE was nailed to a cross,sit on and mocked, and speared in His side and bled for transgressions. BUT! Three days later HE rose from the dead and defeated death, so we may have eternal life! In light of all this I gave my life to HIM. Quick question...if you gave your son for someone, so they wont have to receive the punishment they deserve.....they spit on your sacrifice...how would you feel? GOD's wrath is on mankind...He is a just GOD, so there had to be justice...but you choose too spit on his love (no greater love is when a man gives his life for another)...your condemnation will be well deserved!

Posted by: telion | January 15, 2004 5:42 PM

telion, I am not an omniscient, omnipotent being. Therefore your question is irrelevant. Love to stay and chat, but I'm not going to use Richard's blog for that-he has a much more important mission in life than providing spam-space for the godstruck. Terri

Posted by: Terri | January 15, 2004 11:07 PM

What???? You don't even know your view...LOL! I'll just pray for you. Question...do you believe in the bible being a super natural book? Tell me your view about it...Oh! I am Godstuck...there's nothin' like it!

Posted by: telion | January 16, 2004 5:30 PM

What the damnation does this have to do with the topic of this entry?

Posted by: Webmaster | January 16, 2004 5:50 PM

Much! In the topic Tyson basicly says the bible has no credibility....I wanted the opinion of the other debater(s)...Do they feel the same way. But on the other hand...it wasn't a clearly focused discusion...I apologize.

Posted by: telion | January 16, 2004 9:21 PM

Hmm...your angry at us telion...does that mean you are due for judgement? We are expressing our views, and you decide to hatefully bicker to us of how we do this wrong and say that wrong and how we are going to burn in Hell for eternity...two words telion, tsk tsk Hugs and Kisses to you my angry friend, you apparently need them, ciao!

Posted by: David Demoro | January 17, 2004 6:42 AM

Why would I want someone to burn in hell. That's not anger, but deep concern...for both of you. And if you read the bible...if I do sin, the penalty has been paid, because I accepted the free gift of salvation. As it is written...Therefore there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus...thank God for that!

Posted by: telion | January 17, 2004 10:11 AM

Sweet jumpin Jesus, you make my head hurt...look, I'm just saying...maybe you should look outside the box...your religion isn't the only one...don't you think maybe the others have something going as well? I mean...they've been around for so long....they have to have something going here...be alittle open-minded...you God is my God....there it's solved...and mine if yours....no matter whether you will agree that my secular pagan Gods deserve to be compared to yours...if you prefer to be like that, so be it...just don't bicker at my...bickerbickerbicker! :)

Posted by: David Demoro | January 17, 2004 12:28 PM

You are attacking Christianity, when in this case you ought to be attacking Judaism (I have nothing against the Jews). Your arguments come from the Old Testament, which is God's first revelation to man before Jesus came along, before forgiveness was at the door to anyone willing to knock. Judaism focuses on the Old Testament. If you are going to bash Christianity, you need to take your arguments from the New Testament; i.e., from Jesus and the Apostles' letters and such. Jesus said, "Do not murder." Jesus said, "If you even look at a woman with lust, then you have already committed adultery with her." And the part about slavery? Jesus said, "Masters, treat your slaves with love. Slaves, treat your Masters with respect." In regard to slavery, Jesus didn't come as a warrior with a sword to cut and kill; he didn't come as an abolitionist; he came to die for the Master, for the Slave; he came to die for everyone, and to free peoples' hearts from the chains of sin, not from the chains of man.

Posted by: AJ Barnhart | January 20, 2004 7:43 PM

If you took an Edsel or Yugo back to biblical times, it would be hailed as a great feat of engineering. This is because they have nothing to compare it to. In the same way, if a person only has one book, they might think that it is a literary masterpiece. I grew up in the Midwest. I had to read the bible (old testament) in a public high school under the sham that it was literature and not religion. We never had any discussions about its writing style, because frankly, it doesn't have any. Reading about the Stoddards left me wondering whether they really believe what they are saying or whether they are cynically using a bogus argument to push their religion onto other people's children. They are either ignorant or dishonest. I'm curious which one it is. Forcing children to read religious books using taxpayer money is a clear violation of the separation of church and state. It should be challenged in the courts. It would be quite entertaining to hear someone in court trying to defend the bible as "a literary masterpiece."

Posted by: Badguy | January 25, 2004 3:33 AM

>>Lansing atheist Spike Tyson calls the holy Scriptures nothing more than an artfully contrived lie fit for use as toilet paper.>> Close but not quite correct, I said "Most Buybulls are used manly as toilet paper in most countries of the world and I can think of no better use for it.” I am being very kind I might add. It is the most reproduced, destroyed, used as toilet paper book ever made. Spike Tyson

Posted by: Spike Tyson | February 16, 2004 4:41 AM

Mr. Tyson, I attended the meeting at which you spoke, and I must congratulate you. You mananged to alienate most every person against you, including those you are detractors of the bible class, but cannot stand an attack on one's beliefs. This is not an issue of Christians vs. Atheists. Your making it one is both insulting and short-sighted. Instead, use something softer like "Scott" toilet paper to wipe your misplaced eyes, or would you rather do exactly what you claim we christians do: be uncompromising in my beliefs. In fact, we christians are the exact opposite. We will tolerate your beliefs while fervently praying for you conversion. Your approach to converting atheists is both insulting and ineffective. I would like to encourage you to continue your efforts and continue speaking... the more saved souls the better. I was against the bible class, but I am not with you. -A resident and concerned citizen of Frankenmuth.

Posted by: Humblerofmorons | February 16, 2004 9:59 PM

Hello Sir, Calvary greetings from the throne of God and may his blessings and spirit be with you for you and around you as you bring his children to his throne to learn. Sir,i am a full blooded Nigerian with great respect for your ministry,so i am interested in learning at your school,knowing that christ the savior is the foundation of your institution. I look forward to hearing from you. Stay blessed in his presence. Elizerbeth .U. Omoru

Posted by: Lizzy | March 25, 2004 11:08 PM

All of you are argueing over religion which God said not to do. I am saved and I do try to live my life for God. Instead of critisizing the christians like me just take the time to listen and TRY to understand what we are saying. It's all about faith and if you don't have that then you can't have a relationship with God. I know you've all probably herd this but it is true. You can't see the wind but you know its there. do you know why? You FILL it. well its the same with God. We know hes there because we fill him. Ohh and by the way David Demoro My God is real not carved into wood or Gold. Here's the way I look at it. some were just ment to die and spend eternity in hell. Those of us who believe will spend eternity in heaven. We are supposed to be a faithful witness and to have faith in Christ is why we talk about Jesus alot. Not only that but because of what we went through to save me. That's the whole reason for Jesus is because mans sin was so bad it couldn't be forgivin no other way than Gods greatest sacrafice. How many of you would be willing to let your son die for the world. GOD CRIED and turned his back on Jesus it was so bad. All he asks in return for all that was that we would believe and have faith in him. He Loves Us ALL whether we believe or have faith in him or not. God doesn't send people to hell. He gave them the option and they chose either Heaven or Hell. I will pray for all of yall and yall pray for me.

Posted by: Kyle | May 25, 2004 1:19 AM

Leave the Bible out of school . . . Why? If it bothers a student that its there, then maybe they shouldn't read it, but have it there for those who want it ! ! !

Posted by: Andy90805 | September 26, 2004 2:54 AM

I am very grateful for the Bible-Teaching that was given at my school. It bore fruit after many years. Your comments on the Bible, - a myth and purportly a teacher of lies etc. - , is most offensive hate-mail which ill accords with your demands on those who are of a different opinion to yourself.

Posted by: Dr. Roger Clark | October 3, 2004 1:10 AM

It amazes me how many people want a book that was written by people in the first place, people whom they have never met nor were able to question about their writings, as the guide for living. Not to mention it was written thousands of years ago and nobody who has faith actually has faith in any god, but rather in words written by humans whose education level was minuscule at best. You have faith in a written word. Nobody has seen this god, talked to this god nor have they talked to anyone who has made these extreme claims that are made in the writings of the bible. I am reminded of a pack of pet cats that I saw living wild in a city I once lived in. These creatures that are generally tame and kind hissed and clawed at the site of a human. It was because it was all they knew. They never cared to explore humanity once they had lost the connection with it because they had been frightened of humans since birth. Those of you who have faith only do so because it is what you have been taught, you have been told the stories and been warned of the repercussions of non-belief or conformance. You are the most feeble minded among us. You choose to ignore the truth that there is no god, no satan, heaven or hell. Not only are you feeble minded for believing such nonsense, but you are dangerous because you insist that your almighty god needs you to force his will on the rest of society through laws and sanctioned prayer in schools. In closing I will just put it this way. Everything that gives human beings a false sense of security and control over their lives is part of an addiction. You can get it from food, drugs, alcohol, spending money, sex or religion. Putting a bible class in school would as advantageous as a cocaine snorting class.

Posted by: Pete | November 28, 2004 8:01 AM

The Bible is not a literary masterpiece. A masterpiece is a well written piece of work without plot holes, contradictory circumstances, or a well understood theme. If one were to read the Bible as a book from cover to cover, you would think God was a schizophrenic who asked people to sacrifice children as proof of their devotion and trashed cities in the first testament to becoming an all-knowing father in the second. And even the new testament cannot be taken seriously except in a psychology class. If one reads the teachings of Jesus and looks at them chronologically, he goes from saying that "All the things I do you can also", and "I am a child of God, as are you" to wackiness later in his life such as "If you love your family more than me, you are unfit for heaven", as well as "I am the only true son of God, and the only way to Heaven". He followed the path of all zealot sociopaths, of starting humble and them claiming divinity. His symbol is the cross, the sign of his crucifixion. This is supposed to mean that he "died for us" instead of the fact that he was killed because he was an obnoxious self-absorbed a-hole that totally drifted away from what attracted his followers in the first place..."We are all the loved children of God" There is no factual information in the bible, and very limited moral values worth being taught. Aesops fables offer more moral guidance than the Bible does, and without claiming that talking animals are factual. Claiming that this book, which was denied the status of being a factual document by man well before science even began to make a dramatic difference is ludicrious. Ask a physicist about how many laws Jesus breaks by walking on water, and his head will spin. Ask a historian how often its been proven to happen, and theyll answer none. Ask a Zealot, and theyll tell you (as a friend of mine once did, that "God allows the laws to be broken sometimes." My response to that was "Perhaps you go into denial because the alternative scares you too much." Gods have come and gone so many times in human history that even considering a piece of religeous text as factual is a joke. Children have the option to get a religeous education if their parents choose to do so, however, the parents must pay for their kids to go to Catholic School, Baptist School or whatever. If they are too poor to do so, they should consider it a test of their faith to come up with the money. Hell, if God wanted his devout to sacrifice their kid to prove their faith, asking JesusDad and JesusMom to get second jobs dosent sound like all that much. If their faith isnt stong enough to allow their children to be educated as well as they'd like, then they just have to work even harder instead of trying to impose their beliefs on a public, free school. If they feel the public school dosent reinforce their faith enough, perhaps they should spend some of their time and lottery-ticket money on texts that they can read and educate their kids with in their own time at home. But then again, if you are devout, you should have no problem with this, now would you..."

Posted by: Wayne Cosney | September 28, 2005 10:12 PM

How do you feel?

Feel free to share your feelings about Don't let public school become Bible school. Please stick to the theme of the entry. Disagreement is fine. Homophobia, racism, and kindred expressions of hatred will be deleted. This site is one of my hobbies. I genuinely enjoy hearing from people and hate moderating or killing comments. Forthright disagreement is fine as long as it is civil.
My thanks,
Richard

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